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  #1  
Old 08-09-09, 01:34 AM
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avery's shot or sean's?

remember how avery stuck a dagger right in new yorks citys heart and how we rejoiced our first championship i do i was going crazy....
or in the same since against the blazers to help that run when the blazers were up big i think it was like a 20 -2 run cant remember exactly but shaun elliot capped it off with a three with 2 seconds left with his toes just in bounds... you pick the memorial day miracle or the little generals shot to cap off our first championship from the corner actually the pass was from shaun , but anyways which one...
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Old 08-09-09, 01:39 AM
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how can someone who's apparently a Spurs fan not know the correct spelling of Sean Elliots name?
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Old 08-09-09, 03:34 AM
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Well it's kind of funny Prtytime-renocarter spelled Sean's name correctly in the title but incorrectly in his post.

Anyway, I would choose the "Memorial Day Miracle" because the shot was...well...miraculous. He barely caught the ball and he was so close to stepping out-of-bounds (Sean was also battling kidney issues too). Another thing: the Spurs had been down by 18 at the end of the third quarter and normally that is enough to carry over to the fourth quarter. The Spurs battled back however and Sean's shot was the final push to send us over. It was a hell of a shot.
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Old 08-09-09, 03:44 AM
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no comparison, whatsoever. Sean Elliott's miracle 3. Avery's shot was simply a wide-open mid-range jumper - i mean really, the reason everyone talks about that shot is because it meant Avery managed to hit a jumper (sorta like retribution). Sean's shot was simply amazing, improbable, impossible... you name it.

but a picture's worth a thousand words right? as incredible as this photo is, it doesn't even tell the whole story about this shot:
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Old 08-09-09, 03:50 AM
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Seans shot hands down. From that point, they all knew the title was theirs for the taking. Watch the 99 champs dvd, and you'll hear DROB say in an interview that it was the defining moment for the spurs believing that it was their time. I was watching that game live at home in OZ when Sean hit that shot, and decided then and there to book my plane ticket and go to SA for the finals. Needless to say....I wasn't disappointed....i believed.
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Old 08-09-09, 03:53 AM
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Shoot...not only were Seans toes on the line, and he was millimetres from being out of bounds, but he shot it over Sheed who jumped atleast 20 inches higher than Sean. How Sheeds didnt get a finger to it, is just as amazing.
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Old 08-09-09, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.T.Dunkonyoazz View Post
Shoot...not only were Seans toes on the line, and he was millimetres from being out of bounds, but he shot it over Sheed who jumped atleast 20 inches higher than Sean. How Sheeds didnt get a finger to it, is just as amazing.
I forgot that Sheed was the one guarding Sean on that. Funny how Sheed was the one burned on a final shot not once but twice during last shot attempts by the Spurs. The other was Horry's shot against the Pistons in game 5 when Sheed left him open to sink down on Ginobili and couldn't make it back in time to block Horry's shot.

C'mon destiny...let's have it happen again against the Celtics in this years finals.
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Old 08-09-09, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurnation View Post
I forgot that Sheed was the one guarding Sean on that. Funny how Sheed was the one burned on a final shot not once but twice during last shot attempts by the Spurs. The other was Horry's shot against the Pistons in game 5 when Sheed left him open to sink down on Ginobili and couldn't make it back in time to block Horry's shot.

C'mon destiny...let's have it happen again against the Celtics in this years finals.
it was actually Stacy Augmon guarding Sean on that play. he went for the steal, which is why Sean was so off balance in the first place. Sheed came over to help, and he pretty much had a full gather for his jump, making that shot even more impressive since Sheed was pretty much jumping as high as physically possible. i was thinking the same thing about Sheed and our big shots though! i'm sure someone's got a big shot waiting for Sheed if they make the Finals against us!
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  #9  
Old 08-09-09, 10:59 AM
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Sean > Avery. We were up 3-1 on the Knicks anyway.
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Old 08-09-09, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurnation View Post
I forgot that Sheed was the one guarding Sean on that. Funny how Sheed was the one burned on a final shot not once but twice during last shot attempts by the Spurs. The other was Horry's shot against the Pistons in game 5 when Sheed left him open to sink down on Ginobili and couldn't make it back in time to block Horry's shot.

C'mon destiny...let's have it happen again against the Celtics in this years finals.
No only that, but if I remember correctly in both cases Sheed was out of position because he made a gamble.
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  #11  
Old 08-09-09, 11:13 AM
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Sean's. his shot made Avery's possible (and the degree of difficultness was great also)
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Old 08-09-09, 04:18 PM
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i say steve kerr's 20 straight threes at the end of the 4th to bring us back for a win!

ok it was maybe like 5 threes, or something, but it was sick
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Old 08-09-09, 04:30 PM
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Old 08-09-09, 05:02 PM
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Sean's shot definitely! I remember jumping up and down screaming with my family and friends when that happened!
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Old 08-09-09, 06:56 PM
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SEAN!!!!!!!!
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  #16  
Old 08-09-09, 10:34 PM
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Sean's shot, hands down! Sean's 3-pointer changed the complexion of the series with the Blazers. If he doesn't hit that shot, that could have been a totally different series. Avery's shot, while really good and the Finals game-clincher, would probably not have affected the ultimate outcome of the Finals. We were way too stacked to lose the Finals against the Knicks.
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  #17  
Old 08-10-09, 09:30 AM
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I'm not one for hyperbole, but in my opinion, Sean Elliott's shot completely changed the mental attitude of this franchise, not only for the rest of that season, but for over a decade to come. For years, the Spurs were a quality team which couldn't go the distance in the playoffs. That shot changed the attitude and the mentality of the Spurs. From that point on, you could tell that they actually believed in themselves.

I was at that game. It was unbelievable. For the first three quarters, it was beginning to look like the Spurs were going to once again fold up and allow themselves to be mentally dominated by a more physical team in the playoffs.

During that comeback, you could literally feel the momentum shift. As the Spurs began their arduous climb out of that deep hole, Portland started choking up and making the kinds of mistakes that they weren't making earlier. I have lived in San Antonio since 1975, and have followed the Spurs since I moved here. For the first time, I actually saw the Spurs beginning to develop the "killer instinct" that had been lacking for so long.

When Elliott hit that shot, you could just sense that there was a kind of kismet surrounding this team, and that this was finally going to be their year.

So stick that in your * Phil.
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Old 08-10-09, 09:57 AM
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Easily Sean's shot, its not even close.

Like some have said Avery's shot was a wide open mid range, that teams would purposely leave him open on becuase he usually couldn't hit that easy shot.

I've always thaught Avery's shot was way over hyped, I know it was the first championship and all, but it was an easy shot, nothing very special about it at all.
And lets be real, Avery got his jersey retired becuase of that SHOT, which I still don't understand to this day. The guy played on 9 other teams in his 15 year career, I mean COME ON!!!
OK, sorry about that rant.

I vote Sean.
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Old 08-10-09, 12:21 PM
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No question Sean's shot. Avery's shot was nice but, we would have won the series if he missed, if Sean misses we wouldn't have won a championship.
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Old 08-10-09, 12:45 PM
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I gotta go with Horry in 05 over both...also because horry was a monster in the 2nd half of that game and saved us from being down 3-2.
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  #21  
Old 08-10-09, 03:25 PM
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I miss Robert Horry...the ultimate role player. If the team needed blocks...Horry blocked. If the team needed rebounds...Horry got rebounds. If the team needed in your face D...Horry would go "Steve Nash knock down" on you.

And of course...BIG SHOT ROB when the team needed it most.
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  #22  
Old 08-16-09, 01:22 PM
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In defense of Avery

Quote:
Originally Posted by bo spur View Post

And lets be real, Avery got his jersey retired because of that SHOT, which I still don't understand to this day.
If you actually believe that, I think you are pretty ignorant of Spurs history. Avery was a key piece of a championship team, but, like Bruce Bowen, he had a specific role, and it was not primarily scoring. Too many people just evaluate a player on his scoring, yet a great coach like Popovich knows that a championship team must excel at all aspects of the game.

Even saying that, you underestimate his scoring ability anyway. In 1994-1995, the first year that Avery started all 82 games with the Spurs he averaged 13.4 points per game at a 51.9 % average. As a comparison, no guard in the league shot 51% last season, including the shooting guards. In the 1995-1996 season he dropped a little to 13.1 points per game at 49.4% average. That still would have make him 7th in the league last year, just ahead of Duane Wade and Ray Allen and just behind Jose Calderon, Chris Paul, and Steve Nash. (Interesting side note: Avery played and started in all 82 games both seasons. None of the top ten last year played all 82). So, Avery scored over 1000 points for the Spurs in both seasons at very high efficiency.

Once Popovich took over and Duncan joined the team, Avery's role changed a bit. His scoring was not needed as much and he became more of a pure point guard, the "little general", whose primary job was to turn the coaches strategy into reality on the floor.

To illustrate the point here is a snippet from hoopedia's history of the Spurs for the 1995-1996 season.

Quote:
"The move paid off in the regular season, where the Spurs didn't miss a beat. They completed the season 59-23 to capture their second straight Midwest Division title, only three games off their record-setting pace of the previous year. Team chemistry was remarkable, and according to coach Bob Hill "the best I've ever been around."

The talent was equally extraordinary. Sean Elliott and David Robinson represented the West at the All-Star Game, and the back court of Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson posted the league's best assist to turnover ratio."
As another illustration of Avery's role and contribution, here is an account of the 1997-1998 playoff series with Phoenix from the same source.

Quote:
In the playoffs, the Spurs faced the Phoenix Suns in the first round. But for all of Suns coach Danny Ainge's worries about Duncan and Robinson, it was diminutive Avery Johnson who closed the door on Phoenix. The 5-10 point guard, still hearing the whispers that the Spurs needed a stronger point guard to contend, had his way with Phoenix throughout the series, averaging a team-high 20.5 ppg and 6.0 apg in the 3-to-1 series win.
I will close with two of my own personal recollections of Avery.

The first was, I believe, in the 1990-1991 season when there was some problem at the starting point guard, injuries or something. I was watching the Spurs games that season and discovered that the backup guards had a serious problem. Opposing teams found out quickly that you could trap the Spurs guards in the back court and force a lot of turnovers. Larry Brown was pulling his hair out trying different combinations to combat the problem, but really the only thing that helped was to have a lot of the Spurs players to hang back and help bring the ball up the court. And even then there were turnovers. It was a little ridiculous, but every team that was going to play Spurs scouted them, and soon every opponent that the Spurs played was throwing various traps at them when they tried to bring the ball up court.

Finally, Larry Brown brought in a guard on a 10-day contract. It was Avery Johnson. I had never seen or heard of him before. It was like night and day. I have watched quite few games that Avery has played since 1990 and I have never seen Avery successfully trapped in the back court, no matter how many men that opponents have thrown at him.

Once Avery became the point guard and started binging up the ball, the problem simply ceased to exist. Avery was so quick and fast, that often the trap did not have time to develope before he was across the line. His hands were so big, and he had such great ball handling skills that he could maneuver out of any trouble. He had a high basketball IQ, so he understood the strategies of trapping and how to defeat them.

Soon it became clear that the hunted had become the hunter. Avery knew how to take advantage of the opponent's trap attempts by breaking them and then beating the trapping players up court fast to take advantage of numbers.

After the first 10-day contract Brown gave him another, and then signed him for the rest of the season. The scouting reports for the Spurs changed. From recommending that if you trap often you could make the Spurs pay, to recommending that you never trap at all since Avery would make you pay.

The last thing that I want to bring up is directly related to that final shot in the first championship. I think people are missing the significance of that shot. It was not so important in the game as it was a symbolic justice for Avery to put the final touch on the championship victory.

Avery had been criticized for all sorts of putative deficiencies all his career by people who only had a shallow grasp of basketball and what it takes to be a champion. Someone had gone so far as to say, publicly, that no team with Avery Johnson as starting point guard would ever win an NBA championship. That shot was his answer.

However, if you want to get away from the symbolic and to the more concrete, there was something else that happened during that series that I am surprised that so many people seem to have forgotten. I have supposed that celebrating that last shot was also symbolic of the more concrete event, but that may not be true for everyone.

After the Spurs lost game three(?) to the Knicks there were reports in the press that some of the players on the team were saying that they needed Avery to step up. At a press conference Popovich said that the Spurs needed Avery to break down the Knicks' defense so they could get into their offensive flow.

In the next game and the rest, Avery relentlessly attacked the Knicks' defense, breaking it down repeatedly, and getting the Spurs the opportunities they needed. The Spurs did not lose again.

I repeat, Avery was a valuable member of the Spurs championship team, but like Bruce Bowen, he could do some things well but not others. The abilities that the Spurs needed were the ones he had.

That retired jersey was earned by Avery over many seasons in many different ways.

End counter-rant.

Last edited by bills0; 08-16-09 at 01:27 PM.
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  #23  
Old 08-16-09, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prtytime View Post
how can someone who's apparently a Spurs fan not know the correct spelling of Sean Elliots name?
Don't you mean Sean Elliott?
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Old 08-16-09, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bills0 View Post





After the first 10-day contract Brown gave him another, and then signed him for the rest of the season. The scouting reports for the Spurs changed. From recommending that if you trap often you could make the Spurs pay, to recommending that you never trap at all since Avery would make you pay.
And then the Spurs waived him. Look I love Avery and I do believe his retired jersey is well-deserved but Avery was never a scorer. He could score but not his primary role. Yeah he averaged 13 points in 95 and 96 but remember he improved his scoring each year for 6 straight years. He worked his way up to 13 points.
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Old 08-16-09, 04:36 PM
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Without Seans shot Averys shot might not have even existed....Seans shot by a long "shot" pun intended...
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  #26  
Old 08-16-09, 05:53 PM
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For me, it has to be Sean's shot. The only other time I came off the couch higher, with joy, was on 25 Jun 1997, lottery pick night, when we found out the Spurs' owned the 1st pick in the lottery and rights to draft Duncan.
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Old 08-16-09, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alh1020 View Post
For me, it has to be Sean's shot. The only other time I came off the couch higher, with joy, was on 25 Jun 1997, lottery pick night, when we found out the Spurs' owned the 1st pick in the lottery and rights to draft Duncan.
May 18, 1997. June 25 was a great night too. We actually drafted Duncan that night and not Brevin Knight like someone I know wanted us to do.
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  #28  
Old 08-16-09, 10:08 PM
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If I were in charge. Only Robinson,Gervin, Silas, and Elliott would be hanging there. Duncan,Parker, Ginobili, and Bowen would follow. Avery was the biggest punk coach ever as head of the Mavericks, and yes I hold that against him. The Memorial Day Miracle should be compared to The Dagger in Detroit from Horry in 05 which saved the Finals, not the 15 foot wide open shot with 40 seconds on the clock in game 5 with a 3-1 series lead with 2 more games to follow in S.A if needed.
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  #29  
Old 08-16-09, 10:44 PM
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i just tried to do the avery shoot on my 360xbox's nba 2K9 game



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  #30  
Old 08-16-09, 10:50 PM
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Sean's shot which ultimately led to Sean's pass to Avery in New York.

And all while he must have been in excruciating pain with his kidney problems.
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  #31  
Old 08-16-09, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Dagger View Post
If I were in charge. Only Robinson,Gervin, Silas, and Elliott would be hanging there. Duncan,Parker, Ginobili, and Bowen would follow. Avery was the biggest punk coach ever as head of the Mavericks, and yes I hold that against him. The Memorial Day Miracle should be compared to The Dagger in Detroit from Horry in 05 which saved the Finals, not the 15 foot wide open shot with 40 seconds on the clock in game 5 with a 3-1 series lead with 2 more games to follow in S.A if needed.
I am not the biggest Avery fan but here goes. If you want to tighten the requirements for retirement cool. Gervin and Robinson are no brainers Elliott and Silas would be next. Of course TD, TP and Manu go up. But if you are going to include Bruce, then you must, repeat absolutely must include AJ.

Let's make sure we understand Spurs History. I doubt many will argue that the Spurs dynasty is due to Duncan. More than his skills on the court, I'm talking about his skills as a teammate. He set the tone for the way the Spurs organization is run, along with Pop.

Duncan did not learn how to be the ultimate teammate in a vacuum. He came into a climate that cultivated this development. AJ had a lot to do with that climate. True he wasn't the best player, but to me that strengthens my point, because he still was on DRob constantly. And he absorbed more than his share of criticism. AJ lit a fire under DRob like Larry, Shark and Hill couldn't do before (Maybe only Lucas).

AJ's contribution went far beyond a fifteen foot jumper, in fact that jumper served more as personal validation for AJ then to win the championship. I agree we win in '99 with or without that make, but do we win without AJ?

We don't win in '99 it's very likely that Duncan does not re-sign, that the SBC center does not get built, that the Spurs bolt town. Without a Duncan led Spurs there is no Bruce Bowen, without the Spurs in San Antonio there are no Bruce HEB commercials.

One more thing, the leader of the late 90's Spurs teams was without a doubt AJ. He should get credit for that. So don't include his number I'm fine with that, but don't put Bruce in ahead of him. After the Big 7 he's next in line. And do not reduce his career, his legacy to a single open J...
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  #32  
Old 08-16-09, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maurice13 View Post
I am not the biggest Avery fan but here goes. If you want to tighten the requirements for retirement cool. Gervin and Robinson are no brainers Elliott and Silas would be next. Of course TD, TP and Manu go up. But if you are going to include Bruce, then you must, repeat absolutely must include AJ.

Let's ake sure we understand Spurs History. I doubt many will argue that the Spurs dynasty is due to Duncan. More than his skills on the court, I'm talking about his skills as a teammate. He set the tone for the way the Spurs organization is run, along with Pop.

Duncan did not learn how to be the ultimate teammate in a vacuum. He came into a climate that cultivated this development. AJ had a lot to do with that climate. True he wasn't the best player, but to me that strengthens my point, because he still was on DRob constantly. And he absorbed more than his share of criticism. AJ lit a fire under DRob like Larry, Shark and Hill couldn't do before (Maybe only Lucas).

AJ's contribution went far beyond a fifteen foot jumper, in fact that jumper served more as personal validation for AJ then to win the championship. I agree we win in '99 with or without that make, but do we win without AJ?

We don't win in '99 it's very likely that Duncan does not re-sign, that the SBC center does not get built, that the Spurs bolt town. Without a Duncan led Spurs there is no Bruce Bowen, without the Spurs in San Antonio there are no Bruce HEB commercials.

One more thing, the leader of the late 90's Spurs teams was without a doubt AJ. He should get credit for that. So don't include his number I'm fine with that, but don't put Bruce in ahead of him. After the Big 7 he's next in line. And do not reduce his career, his legacy to a single open J...
Good post!
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  #33  
Old 08-17-09, 02:01 AM
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Sean's.
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Old 08-17-09, 06:04 AM
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Sean over Avery. However, Horry's over both as mentioned previously in this thread.
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Old 08-17-09, 02:08 PM
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And then the Spurs waived him. Look I love Avery and I do believe his retired jersey is well-deserved but Avery was never a scorer. He could score but not his primary role. Yeah he averaged 13 points in 95 and 96 but remember he improved his scoring each year for 6 straight years. He worked his way up to 13 points.
I do not blame people for not seeing Avery's worth. A lot of people in the NBA did not either, and it is what they are hired to be good at. But look who hired Avery and who waived him. It was Larry Brown who first hired him for the Spurs (current haul: 1 NCAA championship, 2 NBA Conference championships, 1 NBA championship). It was Bob Hill who waived him (current haul: squat). It was Gregg Popovich who gave Avery his first multi year contract (current haul: 4 Conference Championships, 4 NBA championships). I see the waiving of Avery as a reflection on the coach and not the player.

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  #36  
Old 08-17-09, 04:13 PM
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I do not blame people for not seeing Avery's worth. A lot of people in the NBA did not either, and it is what they are hired to be good at. But look who hired Avery and who waived him. It was Larry Brown who first hired him for the Spurs (current haul: 1 NCAA championship, 2 NBA Conference championships, 1 NBA championship). It was Bob Hill who waived him (current haul: squat). It was Gregg Popovich who gave Avery his first multi year contract (current haul: 4 Conference Championships, 4 NBA championships). I see the waiving of Avery as a reflection on the coach and not the player.

"First rate people hire first rate people. Second rate people hire third rate people."
Sorry bill. Don't know who waived AJ but it was under Brown's watch. He was resigned under Tark (9 NBA wins 10 NBA towels chewed) and then under Bob Hill. Never waived under Hill.
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Old 08-17-09, 04:18 PM
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Also, AJ's plight was defintely a reflection on him. Not necessarily a negative. The dude worked hard to become an integral part of the team. But in the early 90's he was a journeyman. I respect the dude for that and for his tenacity.
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Old 08-17-09, 06:21 PM
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Sean over Avery. However, Horry's over both as mentioned previously in this thread.
Ditto above comment.
I also get Maurice's point about no Bowen if no Avery. Also agree about the order until the Bowen/Avery part. I also wasn't a huge Johnny Moore retired jersey supporter.
I just don't like how Avery handles himself since Spurs Days were over, and apparently his personality wore on a lot of Spurs. Bowen is classier and brought a defensive presence, and clutch 3 pointers through several seasons that puts him ahead of Avery and the nice run he had in 1999 and prior to that.
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Old 08-17-09, 10:11 PM
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i still respect avery (and folks here should too)...i may not have liked his days as a mav, but his days as a spur outweigh the cons he may have. and to a lesser degree, steve kerr...also not a popular person around here. dont forget what he did...we dont have 4 titles without these guys.

furthermore, i think avery meant more to those spurs teams in the 90s than bowen did to the 00s. if u dont know that, you didn't WATCH the spurs in the 90s...

if bruce joined the lakers the sentiments around here would change for him too....just dont forget what they did when they were wearing our colors.
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Old 08-17-09, 10:26 PM
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No comparison to the 1990's and 2000's. 2000's win hands down or you didn't watch the last decade.
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Old 08-17-09, 10:34 PM
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No comparison to the 1990's and 2000's. 2000's win hands down or you didn't watch the last decade.
read slower next time...i wasn't comparing the decades. the titles alone speak for themselves.

i was comparing avery's value to those spurs teams in the 90s to bowen's value to the spurs teams in the 00s.
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Old 08-18-09, 09:20 AM
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Just so I know, because I've been in Dallas for 6 years, How did Avery handle himself post Spurs that was so bad? Because he was a coach for a rival team? Because he brought the same fire that he had as a Spur?

I'm not asking sarcastically or anything. I am sincere. I get to listen to the likes of Randy Galloway and Dale Hanson up here (which is to say I don't). But also I miss out on all the local uproar about "little" things.
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Old 08-18-09, 09:56 AM
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Sean's shot which ultimately led to Sean's pass to Avery in New York.

And all while he must have been in excruciating pain with his kidney problems.
For dramatics, it's Sean's shot, of course. But in terms of "degree of difficulty" for each of the players, the chasm begins to close; AJ's had worked on that little baseline jumper and it was as close to a "go to" shot as he had but, that said, he was fairly open with the game winding down and those two elements add tension (and often result in misses).

Thanks for remembering Sean's pass. I distinctly remembering (I was there, in NYC) that when Sean left his feet, there was a chance he was going to get called for charging. Great pass, great finish.

Back to the question at hand, Sean's 3-ptr goes down in the books as one of the most clutch, impossible, out-of-bounds-line-defying, shots of playoff history.
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  #44  
Old 08-18-09, 09:56 AM
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Just so I know, because I've been in Dallas for 6 years, How did Avery handle himself post Spurs that was so bad? Because he was a coach for a rival team? Because he brought the same fire that he had as a Spur?

I'm not asking sarcastically or anything. I am sincere. I get to listen to the likes of Randy Galloway and Dale Hanson up here (which is to say I don't). But also I miss out on all the local uproar about "little" things.
I have no clue...I will say that when he was on the Mavericks, i disliked some of the stuff he did. I didn't like his trying to work the refs in the postgame and his being a Maverick just bothered me. His team was also full of punkasses and dirty players. But it never affected my overall opinion of him...he was just on another team. Its amazing how many people absolutely hate him now and say hes dead to them.
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Old 08-18-09, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgraphix View Post
read slower next time...i wasn't comparing the decades. the titles alone speak for themselves.

i was comparing avery's value to those spurs teams in the 90s to bowen's value to the spurs teams in the 00s.
And I pick Bowen. Covering Lebron James, Billups,Nash, Carmelo,Kobe,Allen, etc was more valuable than what Avery did in the 90's.
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