artest might be a loss more than a gain

[Dr. Laker]

Originally Posted by Christer

Ariza is longer/quicker/a couple of inches taller than Artest and probably a better spot up shooter. Plus he's YOUNGER than Artest. I agree that this is more of a step back. Artest almost became a hindrance for teh Rockets in that Lakers series on O.

LOL. Ariza has a solid future, but he's not half the player Artest is, on either side of the ball. Even in the playoffs, we could only give him 30 minutes per game because of his poor offensive execution - he has no handles and holds the ball if he's not WIDE open enough to shoot instead of passing it.

He had a SPECTACULAR post season shooting threes, but the concern was that he was just on a lucky streak. He made a total of 9 threes in his first four seasons combined and was so bad (25%) that he was scared to take them. The Lakers forced him to shoot them this year and he made 61, but at a 31% clip - after the Lakers hired Craig Hodges to tutor him.

Plus, the kid is so skinny that when the Lakers played the Cavs, Nuggets, Rockets and other teams with "bigger" small forwards, Kobe had to guard the LeBrons, 'Melos, Gerald Wallaces, etc., and would get worn down. With Artest, that won't bean issue.

Where losing Ariza hurts is in flexibility - he is extremely quick, which allowed us to have him guard the Tony Parkers and Chris Paul's of the league and hide Fisher on a slower player. He was also simply uncanny in the passing lanes - if he went after a ball, he got it, and if he got the ball cleanly on the fly, it was a breakaway dunk the other way. He made a number of momentum changing plays.

Ariza's upside/ceiling, however, is Bruce Bowen/Doug Christie - and he's notas good as either of them at their primes just yet. Artest is an All-Star as well as perennial DPOY candidate.

Given his good behavior the last two years, many think the craziness is over with. If that's true, this will be among the great pickup in franchise history.

[TRslick81]

ne1 who thinks artest isnt an upgrade over ariza is on crack

like i said before if odom resigns which is likely their hands down the favorite out west if not the entire league

[Dr. Real]

Originally Posted by Dr. Laker

he's not half the player Artest is, on either side of the ball. Even in the playoffs, we could only give him 30 minutes per game because of his poor offensive execution - he has no handles and holds the ball if he's not WIDE open enough to shoot instead of passing it.


He had a SPECTACULAR post season shooting threes, but the concern was that he was just on a lucky streak. He made a total of 9 threes in his first four seasons combined and was so bad (25%) that he was scared to take them. The Lakers forced him to shoot them this year and he made 61, but at a 31% clip - after the Lakers hired Craig Hodges to tutor him.

Plus, the kid is so skinny that when the Lakers played the Cavs, Nuggets, Rockets and other teams with "bigger" small forwards, Kobe had to guard the LeBrons, 'Melos, Gerald Wallaces, etc., and would get worn down. With Artest, that won't bean issue.

Where losing Ariza hurts is in flexibility - he is extremely quick, which allowed us to have him guard the Tony Parkers and Chris Paul's of the league and hide Fisher on a slower player. He was also simply uncanny in the passing lanes - if he went after a ball, he got it, and if he got the ball cleanly on the fly, it was a breakaway dunk the other way. He made a number of momentum changing plays.

Ariza's upside/ceiling, however, is Bruce Bowen/Doug Christie - and he's notas good as either of them at their primes just yet. Artest is an All-Star as well as perennial DPOY candidate.

Given his good behavior the last two years, many think the craziness is over with. If that's true, this will be among the great pickup in franchise history.

I think a lotta people are sellin' Ariza a lil short. Liked the kid's potential way back in Orlando. L.A. gave him a chance to shine. I think it's a lil' insultin' to say the guy is "not half the player" Artest is. He won't be an All-Star but he was an effective, smart player. I think that's what separates him and Artest.

I agree that Artest gives you more talent and a lil' more on the defensive side of the ball. However, on O, for the dynamics of that Laker team, it is debatable who would fit better. If Artest totally buys in, it will be good. But for a guy who has made a livin' off of erratic play, it may stifle his game a bit to play the type of game he will be expected to play in LA.

I disagree that Ariza "held" the ball. I think he was more judicious as to shot selection. He knew to take good shots. His judgment of shots is improvin' (playoffs is proof). Also, with two big men down low, I saw him hold and pull out to repost or redeliver the ball to Kobe. His decisions looked more based on him deferrin to the better player. When he did shoot, he hit at high clip.

Furthermore, I think it's a lil premature to say that his ceiling is Bruce Bowen/Doug Christie. Neither one had the athleticism of Ariza. Sadly for him, I don't think he'll have quite the same success in Houston but it won't be for lack of talent.

[Rzarector7]

Originally Posted by TRslick81

ne1 who thinks artest isnt an upgrade over ariza is on crack

like i said before if odom resigns which is likely their hands down the favorite out west if not the entire league

Sad BUT TRUE!

[Vito Corleone]

I will say right now that Artest on the offensive end will not be a big difference. The ball goes through Kobe and Gasol, and that will not change unless they scrap the triangle. Artest might be a bit more consistant than Arza but Arza has a lot of upside.

Artest will be able to guard the bigger small forwards but he won't be able to guard the quicker ones.

On paper the Lakers should be the best defensive team in the league that's a scary thought for a team that scores like they do.

This move could propel them to another 3-peat or it could blow up in their face. Without further Spurs moves I think we will be hard pressed to beat them.

[Grego]

Lakers weakness has been defense. They improved that now. The only way this is not a gain is if Artest loses his mind and/or Odom doesn't come back. It is looking like Odom is back so all that is left is Artest staying sane within the system.

[Rzarector7]

Originally Posted by Vito Corleone

I will say right now that Artest on the offensive end will not be a big difference. The ball goes through Kobe and Gasol, and that will not change unless they scrap the triangle. Artest might be a bit more consistant than Arza but Arza has a lot of upside.

Artest will be able to guard the bigger small forwards but he won't be able to guard the quicker ones.

On paper the Lakers should be the best defensive team in the league that's a scary thought for a team that scores like they do.

This move could propel them to another 3-peat or it could blow up in their face. Without further Spurs moves I think we will be hard pressed to beat them.

With Sheed (If he comes) and Blair and maybe Ian (Does he exist) they very well could beat them, thats a BIG IF though and if they all pan out the way we hope they can.

I think alot of this banks on Sheed now, it's either we can compete with LA or not and it is pretty much relying on ifs right now.

I hope Sheed comes, Blair is what we think he can be and Ian actually plays this year, then we have a shot (Only then).

Originally Posted by Grego

Lakers weakness has been defense. They improved that now. The only way this is not a gain is if Artest loses his mind and/or Odom doesn't come back. It is looking like Odom is back so all that is left is Artest staying sane within the system.

Artest can very well lose his mind, he does it often! I hope he has one more left in him.



Remember the team he destroyed? What a talented group of players they had in Indy, he ruined a huge title run by them. Maybe he can ruin LA?

[Grego]

Originally Posted by Rzarector7

Remember the team he destroyed? What a talented group of players they had in Indy, he ruined a huge title run by them. Maybe he can ruin LA?

Indy was destroyed by a number of people. Most of all Isiah Thomas who has destroyed the Knicks, the CBA, etc.

[alh1020]

Originally Posted by Grego

.... Most of all Isiah Thomas who has destroyed the Knicks, the CBA, etc.

Not to get off the subject but Isiah's not done. Didn't screw up a recruiting venture at that Florida univerisity he now coaches?

[grizzly_bexar]

Originally Posted by maldoror

Artest is better than Ariza on both sides off the ball, not just on defense. Artest can create his own shot, and Ariza cannot. Artest is nasty in the post and can also hit the outside shot. His problem has been shot selection and taking contested shots when he has been in a position of having to carry too much of the load on offense. He's a better option on offense than Ariza and he won't have to be a primary scorer. His efficiency is going to go up now. He will be getting wide open looks with Kobe and Gasol on the floor, just like Ariza got. Ariza is a good young role player but his teammates made him who he is.

You think he'll stop taking dumb shots just because he's not the primary option?

When has he ever been the #3 option and done well?

And I don't just mean #3 as in the 3 best Spurs of all time are TD, DRob, and Gervin. I mean as in, in order of beauty, you have Charlize Theron, Angelina Jolie, and Rosie O'Donnell.

Some guys who are productive #1 options, but who can't win as #1 options, turn out to be great #3 options on title-winning teams. Others who can't win as #1 options end up being horrible #3 options (See Iverson, Allen).

[katyspursfan]

Originally Posted by TRslick81

ne1 who thinks artest isnt an upgrade over ariza is on crack

like i said before if odom resigns which is likely their hands down the favorite out west if not the entire league

Not only am I not on crack, but I can spell entire words.

I don't think that Artest is an upgrade over Ariza. Artest as a defender is declining, but still considered to be All Star (or a DPOY candidate). I don't know why, except some in the media prefer to follow than research/watch.
Artest as an offensive player is streaky. He can have a great game, followed by 3 where he misses early shots, and makes up for the misses by really bad shots the rest of the night.

He's half a dozen years older than Ariza.

Only time will tell, but I think Houston will be the winner in the 'swap'.

[JWest]

Ask me how Artest does when the Chris Pauls and Tony Parkers, etc. blow by him.

[TRslick81]

Originally Posted by katyspursfan

Not only am I not on crack, but I can spell entire words.

I don't think that Artest is an upgrade over Ariza. Artest as a defender is declining, but still considered to be All Star (or a DPOY candidate). I don't know why, except some in the media prefer to follow than research/watch.
Artest as an offensive player is streaky. He can have a great game, followed by 3 where he misses early shots, and makes up for the misses by really bad shots the rest of the night.

He's half a dozen years older than Ariza.

Only time will tell, but I think Houston will be the winner in the 'swap'.

i respect your opinion i just look at it as artest overall is a better value/player etc .Now how he fits in scheme/chemistry wise is yet to be seen but im not looking forward to playing a laker team with kobe/artest/odom.Ariza fit in well obviously but i think if artest plays to his capability's la is even bettter

[spurs fan removed]

artest is better that ariza. they need to sign odom for the pundits to hand them the championship right now.

it doesn't matter health will play a huge factor in the spurs chances of dethroning the lakers. with manu healthy i don't care if they have artest and odom.

[texan in domerland 1]

Originally Posted by spurs fan removed

artest is better that ariza. they need to sign odom for the pundits to hand them the championship right now.

it doesn't matter health will play a huge factor in the spurs chances of dethroning the lakers. with manu healthy i don't care if they have artest and odom.

Yes health will be a big issue. Kobe is geting older too and he takes the same abuse the rest of the leagues #1 options get. He has been very durable with a few scares but nothing serious. Artest is older and less durable at his age. He was a big help to the Rocket in the playoffs but he had mediocre scoring even when Yao went down. Other younger players had to carry the scoring load.

Bynum is a constent health concern.

The key will be matchups. I believe that the Cavaliers were set to beat the lakers and Celtics but ran into a matchup probelm with Orlando. Orlando had no shot to beat the Lakers. Matchups are the key.

Speed and a good Defense could beat this Lakers team even with Odom (if a player like
Sheed comes to the Spurs). Without another significant pickup the Spurs will have a hard time defending the projecteed healthy Laker lineup. Losing Ariza will hurt angainst the Spurs with there speed but we need a C/F who can help anchor the defense, rebound and score a little, something we have missed for 5+ years.

There is definetly hope but the Spurs still need help.

[spurscrazed]

Artest is a Very good offensive weapon, but mostly he is an Outstanding former DPOY defender and his size is Great for his position. Besides him aging and declining and having some mental case issues...

Lakers got a good deal with Artest over Ariza no question. Ariza was good but not as Great as Artest is now, even if Ariza will probably have a better future ahead of him, still Lakers want to win now not later, that is why this move was a great move.

However even if the lakers got Odom back along with Kobe and Artest, they will not repeat. Read my lips. Lakers are NOT repeating next season. Simply because there are injuries plus other teams as Boston and Spurs and different teams are upgrading. And besides the lakers are not going to play the same way next year. Mark my words and don't forget this post ever!!

Spurs are the team to beat and time will show every one that Pop will make a HECK of a team this coming year this is with the Spurs being healthy I will tell you NO ONE team in the NBA will be able to beat this healthy 2010 team.

My guess is that MY SPURS will eliminate the lakers this coming 2010 PO...

FTL and time for the Spurs to take it next year...

GO SPURS GO

[MichaelWi101]

There's not a whole lot of crying over losing Artest coming from Houston, in fact the biggest fans of this deal are the same ones who year after year claim the lakers are the greatest team in the history of the world.

If Artest actually doesn't get lost in the glitz and the glamor of Hollywood, if he somehow stays sane under the pressure, if he can somehow resign himself to being the 3rd or 4th option on offense for an entire season then the lakers will find themselves in the WCF against the Spurs, where they will lose in 6 to a Spurs team that knows how to play a 'team' game with their own set of studs (3 certified all stars and 1 who will be) on the floor.

This doesn't make the lakers unbeatable, what it does make them is the lead story on Sportscenter throughout the upcoming season, no matter what anyone else does.

[spursfan9]

artest will basically negate our acquisition of jefferson. artest can shut him down... .and on offense, artest is WWAAAAAY stronger than jefferson. tho i'm sure someone will argue, haha, agian wishful thinking.
artest has been the go to of at least 2 BIG playoff runs with sacremento and last year w/ houston, ..

jefferson didn't get the bucks into the playoffs, and he was in the east! weak.

jefferson is awesome., but artest was a HUGE upgrade for the lakers.

[bobby4germany]

Originally Posted by spursfan9

jefferson didn't get the bucks into the playoffs, and he was in the east! weak.

[MichaelWi101]

Originally Posted by spursfan9

artest will basically negate our acquisition of jefferson. artest can shut him down... .and on offense, artest is WWAAAAAY stronger than jefferson. tho i'm sure someone will argue, haha, agian wishful thinking..

You have got to be kidding - career averages
Rebounds Artest 5.1 Jefferson 5.3
Assists Artest 3.2 Jefferson 3.0
3 Points Artest .342 Jefferson .353
Points per game Artest 16.1 Jefferson 17.7
Yeah artest is clearly superior to RJ

Originally Posted by spursfan9

artest has been the go to of at least 2 BIG playoff runs with sacremento and last year w/ houston, jefferson didn't get the bucks into the playoffs, and he was in the east! weak.
..

His BIG playoff runs where with Indy in 03-04 and Houston and he wasn't the main man in either case. Both times in Sacto they were gone in 5 games.

The only time Jefferson missed the playoffs was when he was with the bucks and he was the ONLY healthy player they had for awhile and they just barely missed the playoffs

Originally Posted by spursfan9

jefferson is awesome., but artest was a HUGE upgrade for the lakers ..

RJ takes the Spurs back to the very elite, the only thing artest MAY do is help the lakers a little bit. Certainly not huge and I'd be willing to wager that in the long run he hurts them.