Are players like Wilt, Mikan and Russell overrated?

[maldoror]

Originally Posted by bo spur

Not that Marbury and Iverson are as talented as Kobe is, but that they are selfish players who don't make thier team mates better.

It's nonsense. Anyone that pays attention sees all the double and triple teams Kobe gets that opens up the floor for his teammates. Gasol's career FG% prior to joining the Lakers was 50.1%. His FG% playing for the Lakers is 57.1%. Helllooooo.

This whole "makes their teammates better" thing is often a bunch of subjective garbage anyway. If you hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" as a team it's meaningless if you lose. What's most important is does a player make his TEAM better by getting wins for his team.

[alh1020]

I don’t think Wilt, Mikan or Russell was overrated. They were pioneers in a sport that started to evolve and progress during the ‘50s – ‘60s. Like any new profession, there has to be sacrifice and hard work to get it off the ground; they were the foundation of what this league has now become today. They had to survive through bad travel conditions, racism, pay issues, etc. Like someone stated earlier, there weren’t many teams in the early stages of the league so you had to be the best and make sacrifices in order to stay on. These guys played with broken bones, sprains, concessions in order to survive. It was not uncommon for players to play every minute of the games throughout the season. I always cherished the opportunity to watch Russell and Chamberlain square against one another. These were great players, regardless of what generation we’re talking about. I wonder what these legends truly think of the pampered players of today.

I remember a Larry Bird interview early in his Celtic career where someone asked how he liked playing pro. Larry said you can’t beat it: you get up in the morning and eat breakfast that the team pays for; go to morning shoot around; go back to your hotel room that the team pays for; go have lunch that the team pays for; go to an afternoon team meeting; go back to your hotel room that the team pays for to take a nap; go have a pre-game meal that the team pays for; take transportation to the arena that the team pays for; rest in a state of the art locker room before the game; for 2-3 hours play a 'game' that you up grew up playing; after the game answer a few questions; before going to the hotel maybe go to supper that the team pays for; go to the airport and fly to your next game on a plane that the team pays for; and the next day, go through the same routine. And each month, you get paid a salary to do all this. How can you beat that!

[jwong82d]

Imagine Jordan in today's game. If he was good then, he'd crush everyone else today. As good as we remember him being, he played during a time where defenses had just as much right as an offensive player. Now you can't even touch the offensive player, hell I'd be willing to bet he'd ave in the mid 40's! MJ was the best ever! On the other hand, Kobe wouldn't be nearly as good back in MJ's era. While LBJ I think would be just as good as he is now.

[maldoror]

Originally Posted by jwong82d

Imagine Jordan in today's game. If he was good then, he'd crush everyone else today. As good as we remember him being, he played during a time where defenses had just as much right as an offensive player. Now you can't even touch the offensive player, hell I'd be willing to bet he'd ave in the mid 40's!

It's not that simple. There is another side to this you are ignoring. Jordan didn't play against zone defenses. In his era teams couldn't sag their defenses on him or double him without the ball. The players are bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic now than when Jordan played. The amount of talent at the SG position now is greater than when Jordan played. He would have to expend more energy on defense guarding his opponents if he played today.

[theinswes]

Originally Posted by maldoror

It's not that simple. There is another side to this you are ignoring. Jordan didn't play against zone defenses. In his era teams couldn't sag their defenses on him or double him without the ball. The players are bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic now than when Jordan played. The amount of talent at the SG position now is greater than when Jordan played. He would have to expend more energy on defense guarding his opponents if he played today.

no chance jordan does any worse. at 40 yrs old he was still scoring big in today's game. mj often guarded the best player because of his desire, but worse case, he just does what every star nowadays does - not guard the other teams' top player. easy solution.

and sure, guys are athletic now, but as a fan of timmy, i can say that pure skill and talent CAN beat athleticism - tim does this every other night. also, mike was a freak athlete by any means. and as athletic as MJ was, some of his best seasons were when he was in his 30s, far past him having a massive athletic advantage over other guys. talent and skill, not just athleticism. look at all the athletic guys in today's game who don't know waht to do with it.

if wer'e going to play the "vs today's players" argument, imagine MJ on the same type of diet and workout science as today's guys. sure everyone else is different, but MJ too woulda benefited just as much as today's guys. his work ethic was legendary, so imagine that combined with the new knowledge we have now - he'd be even more athletic than he was in the past.

[maldoror]

Originally Posted by theinswes

no chance jordan does any worse.

I didn't say he would do worse. But he's not going to score 40+ in today's game like the person I was responding to suggested. He'd be a 28-30 PPG player just like Kobe, Lebron and Wade.

[theinswes]

Originally Posted by maldoror

I didn't say he would do worse. But he's not going to score 40+ in today's game like the person I was responding to suggested.

i think he would, firstly because he was already dropping over 30 for like 10 seasons. and secondly because of the argument i noted where he'd be benefitting just as much as other players from the new sports science/medicine. guys are athletes from the start, but you look at lebron and dwight: incredibel atheltes out of high school, but nba training has made them complete monsters.

[maldoror]

You are living in a delusional Jordan fantasy land if you think he'd average in the 40's now. No chance.

[theinswes]

Originally Posted by maldoror

You are living in a delusional Jordan fantasy land if you think he's average in the 40's now. No chance.

he averaged 20+ as a 40 year old. but even then, he still managed nights where he dropped big numbers, like his 43pt night. at FOURTY! and this wasn't eons ago, this was around the time timmy was mvp. he was averaging the said 29-30pts as a 34 year old, when his athleticism clearly wasn't the same, and this wasn't some extremely long time ago either to distort the numbers. i'll conede that it's definitely not an "easy" 40, but dude could be averaging something like 38-40pts every year, not just on a good year.

[maldoror]

When great players like Jordan are looked back upon they are often idealized and made a little bigger and a little greater than what they actually were. I think you have fallen into that mindset here. Do you have access to the Bulls Dynasty DVD series? I suggest you watch some of those games and you can see that Jordan was actually human.

[theinswes]

Originally Posted by maldoror

When great players like Jordan are looked back upon they are often idealized and made a little bigger and a little greater than what they actually were. I think you have fallen into that mindset here. Do you have access to the Bulls Dynasty DVD series? I suggest you watch some of those games and you can see that Jordan was actually human.

i watched TONS of michale during the 90s, and i got to enjoy watching him build his legacy year by year with epic performances kids dream about. and say what you will about those that put him up to high, but there's also the other end of ppl who underestimate them and build up and buy into the current players because it is a "now" society and ppl quickly forget abou the past. one of the biggest marks the guy had was that as incredible as he was in a regular season, he upped his production in the playoffs, and ALWAYS came up bigger than expected in the finals, when it mattered most.

kobe is probably just as TALENTED as mike, and i think he's a phenomenal player, but i still think mike is tops because of the great feats he performed when it mattered the most. he never failed at the finals, and as selfish/greedy as he might've been, he still made smart plays and let other guys hit big shots when he set em up. i was SHOCKED by kobe's performance in the finals last year, because i really expected a lot from him and in my opinion, as a fan of his talent, it really did bump him down a bit (which was odd too considering he was incredibel against the spurs). lebron has the best chance w/ all his god-given talents to be the best ever, bar none, but we'll have to see how his career ends up (he's only 24). tim's cemented himself as the greatest pf, and top 10 player all-time, but i won't put him ahead of mj.

[Vito Corleone]

I have been saying all along that those guys were overrated. none of those guys knew anything about physical conditioning or weight lifting so we will never know what they could have been, but one thing is for certain A guy like Ben Wallace would eat them for lunch especially with the rules in the old NBA.