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Old 02-04-09, 12:00 AM
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Shaq vs Duncan - ESPN Mag

The NEXT: Interesting Read on Shaq vs. Duncan - ESPN The Magazine


The NEXT: Interesting Read on Shaq vs. Duncan

Who is the best center of his generation: Shaquille O'Neal or Tim Duncan?

by Ted Bauer


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"Lock it up, brah."



[COLOR=#1a669b][/COLOR]
Chances are you've seen [COLOR=#1a669b]this Shaquille O'Neal vs. Tim Duncan debate making the rounds online[/COLOR], but if ya haven't, we wanted to bring it to your attention. This could be the last season with both of 'em as All-Stars, so it seems an appropriate time to bring up the discussionā€”a dialogue that'll probably last well past the next few generations, honestly.


Link: Tim vs Shaq: The Big Fundamental Aristotle Diesel Robot



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Old 02-04-09, 12:07 AM
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You wish shaq:




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Old 02-04-09, 01:07 AM
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Since the stats are fairly even and rings are even, when evaluating, the best question would be, how would a team of Duncan/Kobe (especially this pairing) or Duncan/Wade do?
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Old 02-04-09, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grego View Post
Since the stats are fairly even and rings are even, when evaluating, the best question would be, how would a team of Duncan/Kobe (especially this pairing) or Duncan/Wade do?
Eff dude you would never lose a game.
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Old 02-04-09, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grego View Post
Since the stats are fairly even and rings are even, when evaluating, the best question would be, how would a team of Duncan/Kobe (especially this pairing) or Duncan/Wade do?
Both teams would win a lot of games.
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Old 02-04-09, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by maldoror View Post
Both teams would win a lot of games.
Really? You are oh so insightful. Thanks. Lets be more specific. If you replace Duncan with Shaq in 04, Lakers win. They also win in 03 as well. Heck, Kobe would probably have 5 to 6 rings by now. Or if you put Kobe on some of Duncan's teams, they win much more.
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Old 02-04-09, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grego View Post
Really? You are oh so insightful. Thanks. Lets be more specific. If you replace Duncan with Shaq in 04, Lakers win. They also win in 03 as well. Heck, Kobe would probably have 5 to 6 rings by now. Or if you put Kobe on some of Duncan's teams, they win much more.
Thumbs up for dripping sarcasm. Maybe you should word your questions better.

The issue of replacing Shaq with Duncan is an impossible question to answer. Shaq was an unstoppable force in those championship seasons. He had entire defenses collapsing on him and he was dunking with three guys hanging all over him. And despite this some of those series were barely won by the Lakers, except in 2001 when they blew everyone away.

Last edited by maldoror; 02-04-09 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 02-04-09, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by maldoror View Post
The issue of replacing Shaq with Duncan is an impossible question to answer. Shaq was an unstoppable force in those championship seasons. He had entire defenses collapsing on him and he was dunking with three guys hanging all over him.
Add the ALL-NBA Defensive teams and then Tim owns Shaq because that shows that Tim plays BOTH SIDES of the Court.
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Old 02-04-09, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TodTango View Post
Add the ALL-NBA Defensive teams and then Tim owns Shaq because that shows that Tim plays BOTH SIDES of the Court.
You are ignoring that on the offensive side of the ball Shaq was much better though. He was unstoppable.

Last edited by maldoror; 02-04-09 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 02-04-09, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maldoror View Post
The issue of replacing Shaq with Duncan is an impossible question to answer. Shaq was an unstoppable force in those championship seasons. He had entire defenses collapsing on him and he was dunking with three guys hanging all over him. And despite this some of those series were barely won by the Lakers, except in 2001 when they blew everyone away.
Shaq's window is a lot smaller when compared to his full career. Kobe had a big part of that. No one Duncan has been at Kobe's level. As good as Parker and Manu are, they are not that close to Kobe's. If you leave the role players alone and just swap out the stars, Duncan is the more sucessful one. Duncan would led Kobe lead. He's not stubborn like Shaq. He would be a leader, by example, and let teams worry about him while Kobe kills them.

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You are ignoring that on offensive side of the ball Shaq was much better though. He was unstoppable.
Since Duncan entered the league, his team has the best winning %. Best defensive team during that time. Spurs are the second winningest franchise in bball behind Lakers.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:05 AM
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Since Duncan entered the league, his team has the best winning %. Best defensive team during that time. Spurs are the second winningest franchise in bball behind Lakers.
Since Duncan entered the league the Spurs are the winningest franchise in basketball. You could also say that since Duncan became a Spur, the Spurs have since passed the Celtics in Winning Percentage for a franchise.

Since Duncan entered the league, the only team that has a winning percentage against the Spurs, is NOT THE LAKERS, NOT THE MAVERICKS...TRY THE BUCKS.

Also, having said that Shaq was dominant offensively...couldn't one say that since Tim has been ALL-NBA D team his entire career and ALL-NBA his entire career and missed less games and still plays at a high level that overall, Tim is the better player.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:07 AM
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There are too many variables to be able to make reliable predictions on how each would do if they swapped teams.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TodTango View Post
Since Duncan entered the league the Spurs are the winningest franchise in basketball. You could also say that since Duncan became a Spur, the Spurs have since passed the Celtics in Winning Percentage for a franchise.

Also, having said that Shaq was dominant offensively...couldn't one say that since Tim has been ALL-NBA D team his entire career and ALL-NBA his entire career and missed less games and still plays at a high level that overall, Tim is the better player.
Actually winningest franchise in all of the 4 major sports, I meant to say.

Quote:
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There are too many variables to be able to make reliable predictions on how each would do if they swapped teams.
I guess Kobe is chopped liver?
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Old 02-04-09, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by TodTango View Post
Also, having said that Shaq was dominant offensively...couldn't one say that since Tim has been ALL-NBA D team his entire career and ALL-NBA his entire career and missed less games and still plays at a high level that overall, Tim is the better player.
Shaq is four years older than Tim. Once you get into your 30's, four years is significant. I think people forget this when they see a drop in Shaq's game and less of a drop in Tim's game. That said, Shaq is still an all-star and he will be 37 next month.

Last edited by maldoror; 02-04-09 at 02:16 AM.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:14 AM
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Actually winningest franchise in all of the 4 major sports, I meant to say.
You can't compare winning percentages across sports. In basketball if you have 3 great players you are a championship contender. In Baseball and Football you can have three equally great players and be in last place.

Last edited by maldoror; 02-04-09 at 02:16 AM.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maldoror View Post
Shaq is four years older than Tim. Once you get into your 30's, four years is significant. I think people forget this when they see a drop in Shaq's game and less of a drop in Tim's game. That said, Shaq is still an all-star and he will be 37 next month.
The true strength of Tim's game is his fundamental greatness. See, the issue with Shaq is that he heavily relied on his brute force athleticism and with age, while still effective, it is not what it used to be and as such, has made Shaq less of a dominant threat.

Outside of Tim's first 3 seasons, you don't get highlight dunks or volleyball slam blocks with Tim because he relies on just what works for him. It's a steady diet of drop-steps and jump shots and great positioning. These things are all things Shaq could've worked on but did not because, when he was young, he felt he didn't need to. This season he actually conceded that he needs to stretch now because it wasn't something he did at all when younger. And it's easier to be an All-Star when the coach of the team is one of your staunchest supporters. Not saying he wasn't worthy, but most of the players chosen are for the most part, full-time players.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TodTango View Post
The true strength of Tim's game is his fundamental greatness. See, the issue with Shaq is that he heavily relied on his brute force athleticism and with age, while still effective, it is not what it used to be and as such, has made Shaq less of a dominant threat.
This is true but age has something to do with it as well. Tim definitely won't be the same player in four years that he is today.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:29 AM
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You can't compare winning percentages across sports. In basketball if you have 3 great players you are a championship contender. In Baseball and Football you can have three equally great players and be in last place.
It still says something for the franchise and its leader. Consistency is difficult. Baseball and football require more role players, but the ratios are the similar when you compare roster sizes if you want to break it down that much.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:31 AM
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This is true but age has something to do with it as well. Tim definitely won't be the same player in four years that he is today.
But he already has the more consistent career, even if Shaq had the bigger peak at one point. Duncan over the same amount of time has had the more polished career across categories. it shows with all his accomplishments along the way and the numbers he carried. Even now, Duncan has altered his game to best fit the will of the team. Being able to adapt to the team is something that is very important.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:35 AM
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It still says something for the franchise and its leader.
Yes it does say something. But it's meaningless to compare winning percentages in basketball to those in baseball and football. Apples and oranges. It's harder to build a consistent winner in the other sports. In basketball if you get your hands on 2 or 3 great players you are set for a long time. Not so in the other sports.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:43 AM
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Yes it does say something. But it's meaningless to compare winning percentages in basketball to those in baseball and football. Apples and oranges. It's harder to build a consistent winner in the other sports. In basketball if you get your hands on 2 or 3 great players you are set for a long time. Not so in the other sports.
Then you are underplaying the role of the role players, if you think 2-3 great players keeps you set. It really doesn't. What sets apart the best teams are the other players that fit their roles. Lakers finally have that with their stars and then some (when Bynum is playing and healthy). 2-3 might get you to the playoffs, but not much more especially in the West.
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Old 02-04-09, 02:45 AM
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But he already has the more consistent career, even if Shaq had the bigger peak at one point. Duncan over the same amount of time has had the more polished career across categories.
I agree Tim has been more consistent compared to Shaq if you look at their all-around games, and that Shaq was the more dynamic player in his prime. I think it can be argued as to who has had the better career, but at the same time, few people outside of San Antonio would pick Tim over Shaq if they could have each player in their prime.
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Old 02-04-09, 03:03 AM
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i think the interesting thing is it's so damn hard to compare them in terms of head-to-head. basically, w/ both in their prime, neither one had a chance at guarding the other, simply because their games were so different. their styles are so different.

i do think in terms of 'impact' on the game, shaq wins easily, just the way he was a freak of nature that was the biggest matchup nightmare the league has seen in however long. i think timmy ends up the better player overall, but i do believe it's pretty close.
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Old 02-04-09, 03:15 AM
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IMHO, A Duncan/Kobe line up would possibly be the only chance of any NBA team rivaling the Russell-Celtics championships. It's a perfect "fantasy" symmetry.
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Old 02-04-09, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by theinswes View Post
i think the interesting thing is it's so damn hard to compare them in terms of head-to-head. basically, w/ both in their prime, neither one had a chance at guarding the other, simply because their games were so different. their styles are so different.

i do think in terms of 'impact' on the game, shaq wins easily, just the way he was a freak of nature that was the biggest matchup nightmare the league has seen in however long. i think timmy ends up the better player overall, but i do believe it's pretty close.
How much of this 'impact' is due to being allowed to travel, offensive foul, and having one's team be preset to win by way of the referees structuring the game??? Would the Spurs have won four championships with Shaq in San Antonio?...The answer is a RESOUNDING NO!!! Just the fact that they are "even" speaks of Duncan's near superhuman ability/accomplishment in a way, as previously mentioned, that few outside of Texas will ever, ever see.

Easily, hands down, Duncan has done much more with a whole lot less. I'm not even sure Michael Jordan accomplishes what Duncan has done with what he's had.
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Old 02-04-09, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Silver and Black Warrior View Post
How much of this 'impact' is due to being allowed to travel, offensive foul, and having one's team be preset to win by way of the referees structuring the game??? Would the Spurs have won four championships with Shaq in San Antonio?...The answer is a RESOUNDING NO!!! Just the fact that they are "even" speaks of Duncan's near superhuman ability/accomplishment in a way, as previously mentioned, that few outside of Texas will ever, ever see.

Easily, hands down, Duncan has done much more with a whole lot less. I'm not even sure Michael Jordan accomplishes what Duncan has done with what he's had.
I hate arguments like this...lets just find obscure ways to devalue what Shaq does to prop up Tim. And despite Tim's great footwork, he travels alot...he shuffles his feet alot.
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Old 02-04-09, 09:04 AM
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they are both great players and both dominated at times, in their own way.

look at what duncan has done for the spurs since they drafted him, and compare that to what shaq has done for the magic since he was drafted.

/thread
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Old 02-04-09, 10:09 AM
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I've never seen so many crazy trades and dream teams (on paper) put together to have a chance to compete with San Antonio. Seriously. Thats how good Duncan is. Thats how good the Spurs are.
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  #29  
Old 02-04-09, 10:39 AM
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Shaq's days are numbered if not done. Tim can go much longer and a 100 years from now, all that will matter or be remembered will be championships won. When Tim gets another championship, the debate will be over.
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Old 02-04-09, 11:40 AM
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If Kobe were to leave the Lakers in the future and doesn't go to New York. I could see him coming to the Spurs while the big 3 are still here.
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Old 02-04-09, 12:03 PM
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If Kobe were to leave the Lakers in the future and doesn't go to New York. I could see him coming to the Spurs while the big 3 are still here.
Kobe like TD are approaching their expiration dates. Their contracts are huge, their remaining playing days limited. SA isn't going to pay millions in luxury taxes or be like Phoenix did for some nostalgic "Shaq Experience". I still can't believe the Suns are paying that enormous Miami contract and let Riley off the hook so easily. That salary has hurt Phoenix on many levels and resulting trades and motives. It's why teams fail to make the playoffs for years and why the Spurs historically do not.

The Spurs are very very fiscal because they have to be, always have been. They have no choice. It is not an option.

And IMHO, no NBA team has been more brilliant using limited resources with the possible exception of Utah who Pop said he modeled the Spurs FO when he took over.
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Last edited by JWest; 02-04-09 at 12:09 PM.
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  #32  
Old 02-04-09, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver and Black Warrior View Post
How much of this 'impact' is due to being allowed to travel, offensive foul, and having one's team be preset to win by way of the referees structuring the game??? Would the Spurs have won four championships with Shaq in San Antonio?...The answer is a RESOUNDING NO!!! Just the fact that they are "even" speaks of Duncan's near superhuman ability/accomplishment in a way, as previously mentioned, that few outside of Texas will ever, ever see.

Easily, hands down, Duncan has done much more with a whole lot less. I'm not even sure Michael Jordan accomplishes what Duncan has done with what he's had.
boo hoo, more whining about the spurs being hated on by the league. sometimes, you just gotta man up and stop using these wild conspiracy theories to justify EVERY SINGLE loss agains tthe spurs. the spurs lose because of conspriacies, and win despite them... yeah, right... the real advantage most teams have over san an is they have deeper pockets when paying players, and arent affected by luxury tax as much, as well as the attraction of playing in bigger cities. your excuse is basically an excuse for everything - no fault is put on the spurs EVER, and no credit is given to other teams. i wish san an was a bigger market, just so ppl would stop with these ridiculous cop outs and whining.

i said timmy is better than shaq (though it's close), but in no way shoul playing for a small time team help his cause.
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  #33  
Old 02-04-09, 01:59 PM
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Duncan and Kobe?!?!??!!! Sheeeeeet, unbeatable!
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Old 02-04-09, 02:56 PM
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It's both unfair and unclear why you'd want to make any comparison of these two players until they both finish their careers. At present, the only thing I'm willing to add is that Duncan has been more of a stable force for the team he's been on while Shaq has been traded twice and he willingly left another team. As a result, Duncan may not be liked more than Shaq, but he's been a better actual teammate.
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  #35  
Old 02-04-09, 03:35 PM
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shaq's age isnt as impressive because his game has never been based on skill or athleticism, but rather unmatched size. as long as he is capable of running across the floor and stays gigantic, he will continue to put up big numbers.
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  #36  
Old 02-04-09, 04:02 PM
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i think it can ALL be summed up like this:

in a one-on-one game, shaq will beat timmy.
in a five-on-five game (with shaq and four no-namers against duncan and four no-namers), duncan would win.

shaq uses others to make himself better. duncan uses himself to make others better. NO FURTHER EXPLANATION NEEDED
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  #37  
Old 02-04-09, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_chantana View Post
i think it can ALL be summed up like this:

in a one-on-one game, shaq will beat timmy.
in a five-on-five game (with shaq and four no-namers against duncan and four no-namers), duncan would win.

shaq uses others to make himself better. duncan uses himself to make others better. NO FURTHER EXPLANATION NEEDED
The End!


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  #38  
Old 02-04-09, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_chantana View Post
i think it can ALL be summed up like this:

in a one-on-one game, shaq will beat timmy.
in a five-on-five game (with shaq and four no-namers against duncan and four no-namers), duncan would win.

shaq uses others to make himself better. duncan uses himself to make others better. NO FURTHER EXPLANATION NEEDED
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasher View Post
The End!
THE END? You must be joking.

That's nothing but speculation from a biased source that has no basis in any kind of objective reality. Shaq doesn't make people better but he has 4 rings and has been to the finals 6 times? Yeah right.

Last edited by maldoror; 02-04-09 at 06:02 PM.
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  #39  
Old 02-04-09, 06:48 PM
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Joking?????







But of course maldorororor!

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  #40  
Old 02-05-09, 03:23 PM
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One of those guys said Shaq leads 3-2 against Duncan. He's false, it's 3 all.
Shaq beat Duncan 3 times (2001, 2002 and 2004) and Duncan beat Shaq 3 times(1999, 2003 and 2008)
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  #41  
Old 02-05-09, 04:44 PM
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Lastly, and I know Shaq has played a few more seasons than Duncan, but he still beats him in almost every statistical category over the course of their careers:


- 6,000 more points
- 2,000 more rebounds
- 500 more blocks
- 100 more assists
- 4 more All-Star game appearances
- 1 more steal
A few more years?? Shaq's 18 to Duncan's 12 isn't just a few, that 6 more seasons!!!!
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  #42  
Old 02-06-09, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by maldoror View Post
You can't compare winning percentages across sports. In basketball if you have 3 great players you are a championship contender. In Baseball and Football you can have three equally great players and be in last place.
But still, the Spurs accomplishment counts for something.
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  #43  
Old 02-06-09, 02:45 PM
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Easy, Shaq is a better Center than Tim. Tim is a Power Forward.
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Old 02-07-09, 05:50 PM
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First, shaq being an all-star at 37 is no big deal.
Consider:
1) The west is dearth of centers behind yao until oden figures out how to play in the nba or bynum actually stays injury free around all star break.
2) The game is in phoenix. He actually is playing pretty well this season even if shaq sits out DNP-CD due to "rest" which I might add is hilarious that the media was picking on the Spurs for doing it one game at Denver when shaq has been doing this all season.
3) Spurs fan or not, shaq may have been the most dominant player of his generation, but better as far as the entire game of basketball, offensively, defensively, iq, better than Duncan? Duncan has 2 MVP awards, and countless all-NBA, and defensive team. Regardless of who they could have played with, just check their statistics and records for their career. Even if shaq is 37, and Tim 32, AND SPEAKING NBA winning percentage ONLY, Tim Duncan has been the best player in the NBA and the winning is the reason why. NO ONE has won more than him since he entered the league. Enough Said...
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  #45  
Old 02-08-09, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tango from San Diego View Post
First, shaq being an all-star at 37 is no big deal.
Consider:
1) The west is dearth of centers behind yao until oden figures out how to play in the nba or bynum actually stays injury free around all star break.
2) The game is in phoenix. He actually is playing pretty well this season even if shaq sits out DNP-CD due to "rest" which I might add is hilarious that the media was picking on the Spurs for doing it one game at Denver when shaq has been doing this all season.
3) Spurs fan or not, shaq may have been the most dominant player of his generation, but better as far as the entire game of basketball, offensively, defensively, iq, better than Duncan? Duncan has 2 MVP awards, and countless all-NBA, and defensive team. Regardless of who they could have played with, just check their statistics and records for their career. Even if shaq is 37, and Tim 32, AND SPEAKING NBA winning percentage ONLY, Tim Duncan has been the best player in the NBA and the winning is the reason why. NO ONE has won more than him since he entered the league. Enough Said...
+1
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  #46  
Old 02-08-09, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tango from San Diego View Post
Regardless of who they could have played with, just check their statistics and records for their career. Even if shaq is 37, and Tim 32, AND SPEAKING NBA winning percentage ONLY, Tim Duncan has been the best player in the NBA and the winning is the reason why. NO ONE has won more than him since he entered the league. Enough Said...
But there's more than one way to look at it though. Shaq has won just as many rings, has had a very high winning percentage everywhere he has gone, and he has gotten his team to the finals 6 times, two more than Tim.
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  #47  
Old 02-09-09, 03:38 PM
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Before I get into my answer, one of those erroneously claimed Shaq leads Duncan 3-2 in playoff series. This is false. Shaq had wins in 01, 02 and 04. Duncan had wins in 99, 03 and 08. Overall, the playoff games record is tied - each had a sweep, a win in 5 and a win in 6.
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  #48  
Old 02-09-09, 03:56 PM
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Now, for my answer.

Shaq was a freak of nature, first with his size and what he could do and then with his sheer strength.

Duncan doesn't look like a dominant athlete. He mainly relies on skill.

The most interesting things I saw were the relatively close margins between the two when it comes to blocks and assists. It tells me Duncan is doing more than scoring.
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  #49  
Old 02-09-09, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tango from San Diego View Post
First, shaq being an all-star at 37 is no big deal.
Consider:
1) The west is dearth of centers behind yao until oden figures out how to play in the nba or bynum actually stays injury free around all star break.
2) The game is in phoenix. He actually is playing pretty well this season even if shaq sits out DNP-CD due to "rest" which I might add is hilarious that the media was picking on the Spurs for doing it one game at Denver when shaq has been doing this all season.
3) Spurs fan or not, shaq may have been the most dominant player of his generation, but better as far as the entire game of basketball, offensively, defensively, iq, better than Duncan? Duncan has 2 MVP awards, and countless all-NBA, and defensive team. Regardless of who they could have played with, just check their statistics and records for their career. Even if shaq is 37, and Tim 32, AND SPEAKING NBA winning percentage ONLY, Tim Duncan has been the best player in the NBA and the winning is the reason why. NO ONE has won more than him since he entered the league. Enough Said...
regarding the all star game, if you're al jefferson it's a big deal. they could have and should have brought him in instead of shaq...but it's all about the money
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  #50  
Old 02-10-09, 03:56 AM
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With the al jefferson knee injury, the point is now moot, but al did have better numbers than shaq and should have been an all-star reserve. However, with the game being in phoenix and shaq having a good season, there was no way he could not have been picked. mo williams belongs too, but ray allen gets way more publicity or as you put it, mpgraphix, it is about the money....
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Pass is PINPOINT PERFECT
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No Flash No Gimmicks NO CHANCE OF STOPPING IT
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because words are small and GAME IS BIG

GO GO!


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