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Old 02-14-07, 08:30 AM
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Bowen is no longer effective....

Bowen strength has always been his defense. He can't create his own shot and he only can hit the corner three and can't make a free throw worth a lick. But now that the league has turned into a guard type league because of the rules bowen's effectiveness is not worth it. The whole point of bowen is to guard the other teams best player and try to make them less effective, but that hasn't been happening, maybe a difference of 3-5 pts if bowen wasn't there, but then take away the points lost from him not being a threat, not being able to create a shot, or hit a free throw, he's no longer worth it.
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Old 02-14-07, 08:58 AM
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By Spurs817:
Quote:
now that the league has turned into a guard type league because of the rules bowen's effectiveness is not worth it.

The hand check rule that gives guards the ability to penetrate has been around for a while now and Bruce has been effective even with that rule 'cause he is quick with his feet.

read this from an SI article on Bruce.

Others in the NBA are complaining that proper defense can no longer be played on the perimeter because hand-checking has been outlawed in order to liberate the All-Star slashers to drive to the basket. Amid this oppressive climate, Bowen is fulfilling his desire to improve. Despite his advancing age, he is having, according to Popovich, "maybe his best year'' at the defensive end by focusing ever more on the fundamentals.

"You've got to get lower, you've got to be quicker,'' he says. "My biggest thing is to make sure I show my hands. Because a lot of times the officials call for things like this'' -- he stabs out with his hands -- "jabbing at the ball, touching your midsection, things like that.

"So if he puts the ball on the floor, I have my hands out and they can see my hands. Then whenever contact is made, if he goes into me, I go, 'Hey!' The official sees my hands, and then it's like, 'I've got to give him the benefit of the doubt here.' ''


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ly.quiz/1.html
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Last edited by Eddy from Austin; 02-14-07 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 02-14-07, 10:35 AM
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bowen is just old and all the guys he guards are still younger, even though they got older. back in the day spurs could help bowen because he could just guide players to the trees, now no trees. his 3 isnt falling like it used to so basically his offense is zero. could always hide that when tmt were scoring and the bench would pick up the slack, not anymore.
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Old 02-14-07, 12:06 PM
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Lebron: 27 ppg shot 21/43 (48.8%)
Tmac: 31.5 ppg shot 24/49 (48.9%)
Kobe: 33 ppg shot 38/71 (53.5 %)
Dirk: 29.3 ppg shot 35/66 (53%)

Wade: 22 ppg shot 17/36 (47.3%)

also allowed rookie Adam Morrison to go off for 27 in a loss

Redd: 36 pts on 14/22 shooting (63.6%)
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Old 02-14-07, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPURSFAN317 View Post
Lebron: 27 ppg shot 21/43 (48.8%)
Tmac: 31.5 ppg shot 24/49 (48.9%)
Kobe: 33 ppg shot 38/71 (53.5 %)
Dirk: 29.3 ppg shot 35/66 (53%)

Wade: 22 ppg shot 17/36 (47.3%)

also allowed rookie Adam Morrison to go off for 27 in a loss

Redd: 36 pts on 14/22 shooting (63.6%)
.....so these players that bruce is suppose to shut down or atleast try to make as ineffective as possible still had stellar nights with points that would be expected if anybody else in the league was guarding them, now instead of bowen on tmac or kobe, how but start someone like a brent or fin, manu etc and they'll still get there points maybe a few more, but it gives us a WEAPON on the offensive end instead of a LIABILITY anywhere on the offensive side of the courts besides the corner(which hasn't worked out this year anyways) and not allow his defender to drift into the lane and double timmy or clog the lane for tony......
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Old 02-14-07, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by To be named later View Post
Thanks to someone for at least attempting the research.

Now.......how accurate is that?
Was Bowen guarding each All Star the entire time?

Because, for one.......I seem to recall Francisco Elson being our "secret weapon" versus Dirk in the first matchup versus the Mavs.
on Dirk being guarded primarily by Elson for the first game. Dirk shot 9/20 and had 21 for that game. If you take that game away, Dirk goes for 33.5 and shoots 26/46 (56.5%) The other players I put stats for were primarily guarded by Bruce Bowen for the entire game. I don't hate Bowen, I love what he's meant for this team and what he's done. That being said, it's becoming painfully obvious that we need a replacement for Bruce more than ever. Bruce can still be effective, but to be a starter who plays more than 30 minutes a game, I believe it's starting to take a toll on him.

on another note, I actually like Manu defensively on certain players. He has done a decent job on TMac and Kobe, that being said we can't have him getting into foul trouble. Spurs main concern this offseason is getting a replacement for Bruce, whether it's James White remains to be seen.

if you actually take a look at Morrison's stats around that game, he was struggling badly to find his shot. I do give credit to Bowen's D, but not all the credit.
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Old 02-14-07, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by To be named later View Post
Now.......how accurate is that?
Was Bowen guarding each All Star the entire time?
If he's not, then what's the point of him being on the team?
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Old 02-14-07, 01:07 PM
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Bowen is obviously a step slower. But what has magnified this is the disappearance of his three-point shot.

In seasons past, his D was so good that we were happy with anything we got from him on offense, and what made us so good was the fact that our stopper could nail threes all game long.

This year, his shot has failed us in numerous games, and thus it makes us logically question his minutes. If he can't stop people like he used to, it makes coplete sense to question his minutes.

Now obviously when playing against guys like TMac, Bryant, and Dirk, we'd rather have Bowen than not have him, but against other teams, his presence doesn't help us nearly as much.
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Old 02-14-07, 01:20 PM
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Bowen is still a great perimeter defender... In the past, his role was to keep guys from shooting the 3... if they tried to dive past him, all he had to do was make sure they went to the baseline (instead of down the middle)... from there the 2 bigs in the middle would take over the defense and block the shot... Bowen is still doing his part
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Old 02-14-07, 01:23 PM
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Bruce is a great player and is key for us
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  #11  
Old 02-14-07, 01:25 PM
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Why some Spurs fans are willing to "eat our own" on great players who are going to finish the season no matter what happens and disparage them in mid season is beyond me. This season I'll admit had been maddeningly inconsistent but to make generalization that "Bowen is no longer effective" seems ridiculous. Even this season, he's mentioned as usual as DPOY in many polls.

IMO, I think fantasy basketball theory cross over into the real world world a little too often.

Who are you going to replace him with? Agree to disagree.
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Old 02-14-07, 01:38 PM
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I just don't think Bowen is really a factor anymore. Sure he plays solid D, but people are still scoring on him. On offense he just sits in the corner and misses most of his 3 pt. attempts now. During the Suns game 2 weeks ago the camera didn't even have him in the picture. It looks like were playing 4 vs. 5 sometimes when he is on the court. Against Miami he played 36 minutes and scored 0 pts!!! If your a starter (especially a SF) you need to at least contribute 8-14 pts. in that much playing time. Finally, has Bowen forgot how to dribble??

I know Pop won't do it because he loves the guy, but he should really consider starting Finely instead of Bowen. Let Bowen come in and play 20-25 minutes a night. I like Bowen and what he brings to the Spurs, just don't rely on him like they use too.
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Old 02-14-07, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
he's not what he was five years ago but he is still worth having IMO
Who is when you are the other side of 30? But I agree,
I'd like to see Bruce on the coaching staff when his playing days are over. IMO, his skills, IQ, work ethic, team play make Bruce still the defensive specialist's defensive specialist.
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Old 02-14-07, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StNick2261 View Post
Bowen is still a great perimeter defender... In the past, his role was to keep guys from shooting the 3... if they tried to dive past him, all he had to do was make sure they went to the baseline (instead of down the middle)... from there the 2 bigs in the middle would take over the defense and block the shot... Bowen is still doing his part

true, which is part of the problem.

maybe the title should be "bowen isn't as effective."
but isn't all due to his failures.

The Spurs no longer have those two big shotblockers to steer their opponents towards the baseline. I asked at the beginning of the season if Pop was going to change the defense in any way, what with him going more towards a "smaller" lineup.

The part of Bowen's game which is effecting the team in a negative manner is his 3 pt. shooting has gone south since Christmas.

so, poor team defense backing up Bowen and his shooting gone, then yes, by all appearances it seems he is less effective among the current makeup of the team.
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Old 02-14-07, 01:48 PM
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I am sure that there are many players out there who Bruce defends ( like Ray Allen) who do not share your opinion about Bowen no longer being "effective." I am also sure there is a lot of teams who like like to have him now. Sure, he might be getting bad habits from H.E.B. Buddy but no one can Bruce Fu like Bowen.
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Old 02-14-07, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JWest View Post
Why some Spurs fans are willing to "eat our own" on great players who are going to finish the season no matter what happens and disparage them in mid season is beyond me. This season I'll admit had been maddeningly inconsistent but to make generalization that "Bowen is no longer effective" seems ridiculous. Even this season, he's mentioned as usual as DPOY in many polls.

IMO, I think fantasy basketball theory cross over into the real world world a little too often.

Who are you going to replace him with? Agree to disagree.
exactly fantasy b-ball is what the NBA is now, the way the games are called and the rules in place really take away the most valuable part of bruce...look at the DPOY you there all PF or C, followed by artest who's all-star like without his d, and then bruce, you can't be a lock down perimeter defender anymore cuz the league won't allow it anymore, they want the kobes,dwades, lebrons and manu's of the league to be able to get to the rim to speed up the game and make more exciting plays and highlights, that's the league where in now and if we don't adapt then we bound to fail....
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Old 02-14-07, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Bowen is still a great perimeter defender... In the past, his role was to keep guys from shooting the 3... if they tried to dive past him, all he had to do was make sure they went to the baseline (instead of down the middle)... from there the 2 bigs in the middle would take over the defense and block the shot... Bowen is still doing his part
This is a great point. Because of so much small ball and Tim not always agressive, funneling players is no longer effective. I mean when you have Finley at the 4, how in the hell are you going to play good defense at the basket?
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Old 02-14-07, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by easy7 View Post
I am sure that there are many players out there who Bruce defends ( like Ray Allen) who do not share your opinion about Bowen no longer being "effective." I am also sure there is a lot of teams who like like to have him now. Sure, he might be getting bad habits from H.E.B. Buddy but no one can Bruce Fu like Bowen.
actually Ray Allen had good games against Bowen last season. Again, Bowen is the best defender on the team. That's not saying much because our team's individual defense isn't great. The Spurs always use to pride themselves with their team defensive. That is something unfortunately that is no longer there. With the team we have now, Bowen has to start. I don't want Finley out there starting, and I don't like Barry being the starting sf either. But next year for sure, the Spurs have to get a replacement that way Bowen can come off the bench and play limited minutes as opposed to 30+.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake View Post
so Pop is just blowing hot air when he says stuff like "he's still the best defender in the NBA" and doesnt know what he's doing in starting Bruce?

It might be a little bit of hot air, but cmon.....Pop and staff know what they are doing.

And who are you gonna start in Bruce's place? Brent? Manu? Finley? With the defensive mindest that Pop and the Spurs still try to employ,youre gonna give up a lot more on D.

I'd much rather have Bruce do his thing on D than have Manu spend extra energy chasing Koby/TMAc/etc around......
actually something I have noticed is Pop benching Bowen a lot more than in years past. Bowen was usually guaranteed to be out on the court in the 4th, now I can see Bowen on the bench more often then not during the 4th.
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Old 02-14-07, 02:06 PM
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A lot of good points here. And Bruce has definitely been a big part of the success of this team. But go back and watch the Dallas playoff series from last year. And check out who Dirk gets to guard everytime down the court. That's right, he guards Bruce. Or, to put more accurately, he guards nobody. He floats around with Bruce and stays out of foul trouble and basically gets to rest. Just something to think about.
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Old 02-14-07, 02:09 PM
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I still think Bowen can be effective, I'd just prefer he play min more similiar to Manu's 26-30 mins to keep his legs fresh for the 4th quarter and he'd make a good closer for when we have a lead, if he's fresh. I'd like to see the Spurs somehow get a descent 3 (I know, I know, everyone's been saying that) but get one to start and allow Bowen to come in off the bench.
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Old 02-14-07, 02:18 PM
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The Spurs need to start working on replacing him in the near future, but I think he is good enough to be the starter and our defensive stopper this year. Next year we can worry about it, but people ask the impossible of Bruce.

Superstars in this league will get their numbers, Bowen has never been a complete shutdown type of player. Bowen gets the stops when they are needed and makes life difficult for the super stars.

I just wish he would get hot on offense for a while.
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  #22  
Old 02-14-07, 04:02 PM
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If all 5 of your guys are good, he has to.
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Old 02-14-07, 04:08 PM
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I don't think it's Bruces fault that he has no help behind him anymore. Remember we're used to seeing Bruce play with two shotblockers behind him. Say what you want about Rasho and Nazr but they altered shots and played good help defense. This year, with the exception of Elson, he doesn't have that second shot blocker behind him anymore. I think you really gotta look at Bruces job. Harass the other teams leading scorer, contest every jumper they take and force them to drive into the help. He's doing two of those things very well every night, but he needs another shotblocker behind him. Watch the games and tell me he doesn't contest every jumper someone takes as well as anyone in the league. As far as the superstars go, thats how basketball is set up. You can defend someone as well as possible and they still hit a long jumpshot. with someone draped all over them. Thats why they are superstars. People try guarding Timmy as close as possible and he still scores. Bruce just has to make the stars work for everything they get and he still does that very well.
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Old 02-14-07, 04:16 PM
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Bruce is still in great shape, a great defender, and is probably the most durable player on the team. The problem I see is not with Bruce, it's with the help he's been getting from the missed defensive rotations and the (lack of) defensive aggressiveness from anyone except Manu.
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