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  #1  
Old 05-14-06, 06:55 PM
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"Result-biased" Fouls

The more I think about the calls and non-calls in the 4th last night, I've re-affirmed in my mind that the refs (and the league) are not out to make the Spurs lose. (Note I said re-affirmed, meaning I never truly believed it to begin with.)

But I do see there being a problem with the ways the calls were made. It's the refs' stupid custom of "result-biased" fouls calls. I.e. if the shot goes in, no whistle. If the shot misses, call a foul.

There's as much if not more contact on Tim's shots than there were on Dirk's. But because Tim can actually play the post, and make his shots, no fouls were called. Whereas Dirk can't really play close to the basket well and is often out of control going to the basket, his shots miss, and the ref blows the whistle.

So, the Spurs get jobbed because they don't get the "and 1" and we pick up fouls, where Nowitski is a 90% FT shooter. Points even out. Fouls don't.

Unfortunately, this isn't a new practice. But you'd think at that stage of the game, and given the stakes, and the defensive player involved (a all-defensive team player like for the last decade), they'd be better on their "accuracy".

But I guess because Nowitski finished higher than Tim on the MVP voting this year, the other "custom" of "star treatment" takes precendence. I guess they forget Tim's actually won 2 of those things.
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Old 05-14-06, 07:43 PM
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i hate to believe in all these conspiracy theories...but honestly its hard for me to reason out what i saw in that 4th quarter last night i just dont know what to make of it.

i remember one of these "result biased" fouls youre talking about. last night,i think in the 4th, parker played good defense on terry and forced him into a really hard shot. terry of course bricked it, and the foul was called. i remember parker being pretty upset about it. it gave me a sick feeling, because i then realized it was one of those nights...

Last edited by GM5K; 05-14-06 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 05-14-06, 10:12 PM
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The NBA doesn't have an agenda because no one in the league could possibly get away with it. Something as HUGE as "fixed games" or "paid refs" would never stay quiet for very long. There would be a whistle-blower (no pun intended) just waiting to out them, get interviewed on ESPN and secure themselves a six-digit book deal.

This is why I've never believed in an NBA conspiracy. However, I do believe that officials are not nearly as objective as they'd like to think they are. They're human. They're prone to making judgement errors. They're capable of allowing their egos to get the better of them in crucial situations. Some think they're bigger than the game or just another part of the entertainment package. Just like the players they officiate.

And, no, I'm not "pro-referee". Or "anti-ref" either. I just get frustrated at seeing refs who get too "into it", during some of the games they call. But I like when they can keep control of the game and allow it to "flow". I just don't want their last call to be the one that decides the outcome of a game or a series. Let the player's do that.

That said, I want the Spurs to trounce all over the Mavs on Monday night, but I don't want to see them get any "help" from the refs, while doing so. No excuses, from either side.
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Old 05-14-06, 10:35 PM
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Its not about a diabolical conspiracy to create an inevitable preordained outcome. Its a subtle, and sometimes not so subtle bias that stacks the deck against one team and makes it more difficult to win. Ideally the better team will find a way to play through the bias, but when 2 teams are very evenly matched, then that bias could be the difference maker in the series rather than the play on the court. I'm afraid that is happening in this series.
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Old 05-14-06, 10:40 PM
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OK...so if we buy into this, then the refs are making these crappy calls because of Cuban's beef with the NBA?

_irk isn't a post up player...so why is he treated like one? That is like hoping Timmy takes chingles of 3 pointers, hoping he is eventually fouled.....
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Old 05-14-06, 10:41 PM
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For example, assigning specific refs to specific games. Refs are human-- some hold grudges, some are know for favoring certain teams, players. There are some refs who have no business being rewarded with playoff assignments but yet, they are there anyway. Why?

Just adding to the discussion.
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Old 05-14-06, 11:07 PM
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Definitely one of the reasons why refs make bad calls. But there's something more fundamental then 'result-based' fouls. What's that?

Answer: The refs simply cannot see what happened!

Sounds rediculous, but that's the truth. We're watching replays from TV all the time, but those guys, they're watching in real time and conatacts are made so fast they just can't see a lot of them. That's why they do the 'result-based' thing because that will resulted in less complaining from players/coaches in general.
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Old 05-15-06, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson50
Definitely one of the reasons why refs make bad calls. But there's something more fundamental then 'result-based' fouls. What's that?

Answer: The refs simply cannot see what happened!
That may very well be part of the reason. But it still penalizes the team that actually can still finish shots. And if it's because they can't see, one wouldn't expect the kind of disparity such as the 4th quarter last night.
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Old 05-15-06, 02:05 AM
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pessimist was right up there -- if the league had its way from a purely marketing viewpoint, they would want Kobe vs Shaq in the finals, because they are the two most visible players in the league to the once-a-year fans (regular fans like us are going to watch the playoffs regardless). The fact that LAL got booted in round 1 argues against the NBA "fixing" games via officiating.

But yes, the officiating is horrible, and has been unusually horrible this year. The Spurs did get some bad calls in Game 3, although they still could have won with a decent performance on the boards and at the FT line.

Stern would help the credibility of the league if he would lift the cloak of secrecy surrounding discipline of officials. He says the refs are accountable for their work, and that poor performance is disciplined, but the league does not release names, details, etc. This leaves fans to wonder if their concerns are addressed, if refs really are disciplined for game-influencing mistakes, and even if there really is a conspiracy. The NFL admits its mistakes, and tells us who screwed up and what was done about it. The NBA could and should do the same.

Having said that, I am amazed that the refs ever get any calls correct, given the speed of the game. I rarely see a foul in real time; I almost always need the replay. Is it time for instant replay in the NBA?
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Old 05-15-06, 08:51 AM
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citing the lakers of today is a bad example. no one in their right mind would believe they would be good enough to get to Detroit. What Stern would like to see, knowing that the Pistons will represent the East, is someone ELSE play them and the high powered Mavs with the snazzy new head coach is all the rage. Make no mistake. It's about being believable.
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Old 05-15-06, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson50
Sounds rediculous, but that's the truth. We're watching replays from TV all the time, but those guys, they're watching in real time and conatacts are made so fast they just can't see a lot of them.
Good point. Those of us watching at home are seeing the game from angles the refs aren't. Anyone who's watched a game near or at courtside would understand how fast it moves and how difficult it is to see everything through all those players. I barely catch a foul, unless it's on the ball-handler/shooter and it's pretty obvious (i.e. someone falling). Anything else, I need a TV or arena replay to catch.
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Old 05-15-06, 09:58 AM
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I agree completely on result-based foul calling. Minor collision is a no call. But if the collision causes the player with the ball to travel, they call a foul. Just like Dirk stepping on Tim's foot. If he hadnt twisted his ankle and just gone up to put the shot in, no foul call. I also agree its BS. Call the foul, dont try to influence the outcome of the game. And thats exactly what they are doing.
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Old 05-15-06, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossu
Good point. Those of us watching at home are seeing the game from angles the refs aren't. Anyone who's watched a game near or at courtside would understand how fast it moves and how difficult it is to see everything through all those players. I barely catch a foul, unless it's on the ball-handler/shooter and it's pretty obvious (i.e. someone falling). Anything else, I need a TV or arena replay to catch.
Kind of a good point, but there are three of them out there. You and I only catch fouls on ball-handlers and shooters because that is what we are watching. Of the three on the floor, one should be watching the ball and the others are assigned coverage areas off the ball, and their sole focus is to manage off-ball activity. The problem with some refs is they will get caught "ball-watching" and miss their assigned area.
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Old 05-15-06, 11:03 AM
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Refs are not lay people. They have ALOT of training on what to look for and where each refs attention needs to be. That said the officiating is HORRIBLE. These refs are choking worse than Memphis in a 1st round series. Too many ticky tack phantom calls and then someone lays some serious smack down and its like their waiting for the whistle to clear their digestive track.

That said...

The Spurs have not played up to their ability... it has taken waaay to long for Manu and Parker to get their aggressiveness upto where it needs to be during each game. I see the 4th quarter and its like...where the HELL as THIS MANU been all f*ckin game. 12 stud minutes ain't gonna cut it Tony and Manu... give us the 30-35 a piece your both capable of and this series ain't even close.
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Old 05-15-06, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supernatural Anesthetist
Refs are not lay people. They have ALOT of training on what to look for and where each refs attention needs to be. That said the officiating is HORRIBLE. These refs are choking worse than Memphis in a 1st round series. Too many ticky tack phantom calls and then someone lays some serious smack down and its like their waiting for the whistle to clear their digestive track.

That said...

The Spurs have not played up to their ability... it has taken waaay to long for Manu and Parker to get their aggressiveness upto where it needs to be during each game. I see the 4th quarter and its like...where the HELL as THIS MANU been all f*ckin game. 12 stud minutes ain't gonna cut it Tony and Manu... give us the 30-35 a piece your both capable of and this series ain't even close.
so if Manu plays well the whole game, does that mean that we should be ready to see 80 FTAs for the Mavs?
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Old 05-15-06, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchfred
so if Manu plays well the whole game, does that mean that we should be ready to see 80 FTAs for the Mavs?
It means Manu would relentlessly drive the paint and finish the way he did last year all game. Diop and Dampier are easy to get in foul trouble especially with Tim as aggresisve as he is. Add Manu and Tony attacking hard and fluid and we have the Mavs on their heels early and take away the "ref momentum" they've been grabbing in these games. The Spurs are NOT blameless in the way these games have been panned out.

Manu and Tony have shot well but have played well within themselves only stretching to test their games as the game progresses and demands it for the Spurs to stay in it. All I'm saying is...we need that kind of aggressiveness OUT OF THE GATE. If they do that they can rest in the 4th as our scrubs mop up.

We have to TAKE these games, we have to MAKE the refs call our game.

Yes the refs are HORRIBLE...but we are NOT powerless in the face of the officiating!
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Old 05-15-06, 12:05 PM
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Then these ref's ned to be canned - not reffing a major game like this...
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Old 05-15-06, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson50
The refs simply cannot see what happened!

Sounds rediculous, but that's the truth. We're watching replays from TV all the time, but those guys, they're watching in real time and conatacts are made so fast they just can't see a lot of them.
Agreed. I think that's why Tony Parker doesn't get more foul calls--he's going so fast, the refs can't see the fouls against him.
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Old 05-15-06, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelden
Agreed. I think that's why Tony Parker doesn't get more foul calls--he's going so fast, the refs can't see the fouls against him.
And Devon Harris is just slow enough for them to discern them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAD
Then these ref's need to be canned - not reffing a major game like this...

Pickled....then canned! :op
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