ok I won't talk about Parker anymore today....and talk about DUNCAN

[telecomguy]

Originally Posted by SpursRock50

maybe you should stop being a parker basher around here. I seriously dont think you have made a post here that wasnt talking about something Parker didnt do. You seem obsessed. Parker was not pefect last night. made a mistake on the inbound and had some silly turnovers but overall he was pretty solid last night. Finishing with 22 points and 10 assts doesnt suck. he has totally outplayed Bibby in this series and you claimed Bibby was on another level than Parker

alright, let me post about Duncan then. Couple of things I noticed about Duncan last night. He seems to be being used as a pick n' roll pylon for Parker and Manu most of the time. This means he is standing around high near the foul line area and sometimes further out. Is this the correct use of Tim? It seems mostly he ends up being too far from the rim to aggressively go for rebounds in the offensive zone. I am thinking he needs to be playing the classic post up game and then run the ball through him so that (1) he gets more touches, and (2) they can play the inside-outside game. It may be that Pop is trying to draw whoever is covering Tim to follow him to high so that it opens up the post area for Parker and Ginobilli to attack (one less big for them to worry about). This makes sense to a certain extent but as result, Spurs lose any offensive rebounding and post up play from Duncan because he is hanging around the Horry area (high up).

Why not use Horry as a pylon and let Tim stay close to the basket so he can be more aggressive near the rim for tip-ins, rebounds, and post option? Tim used to get lot of garbage points because he used to LIVE in the post area. Now he has almost become another Brad Miller type, hovering around the periphery, being used as a screener for Parker and Gino to do their thing. Use Horry or another forward for that. That doesn't require lot of skill. What we need is more offensive rebounding and inside presence on the offensive end.

Am i missing something here?

[ladyspur]

I guess you dont know how to use the quote feature.

[DizzG]

I fixed it

[santys]

Well, I am just a huge Duncan fan like most of you guys and I would like to see him take 15-20 shots a game...not 16 shots in 2 games!!! Maybe I am just speaking as a Tim Duncan fan.

I know the team is doing great right now. But I keep pointing out to Detroit or Miami...We cannot expect Tim to step it up then when we don't use him enough now...As it is, he's low on confidence...he needs to build it up in these games. And I feel like he's shooting jumpers a lot these days as plays are created for Manu and TP to penetrate and dish. Shooting jumpers are not his forte. He needs to post up and create for himself.

[mckennaspur1]

I guarantee you that we will see the Spurs use every weapon they've got before the playoffs are over.

Yeah, TD is being used to set alot of picks right now. But there will be games when he's the focal point and goes off big. It's just a side-effect of having a roster that's as talented and diverse as SA's is right now.

Along the same lines, it surprised the hell out of me that the last regulation shot was set up for Brent. Most of us (knowing that the shot was going to come from that corner) might have expected Fin or Bowen to be the shooter. Just goes to show how many options Pop has and how smart he is about using them.

[MarineForLife]

Originally Posted by mckennaspur1

I guarantee you that we will see the Spurs use every weapon they've got before the playoffs are over.

Yeah, TD is being used to set alot of picks right now. But there will be games when he's the focal point and goes off big. It's just a side-effect of having a roster that's as talented and diverse as SA's is right now.

Along the same lines, it surprised the hell out of me that the last regulation shot was set up for Brent. Most of us (knowing that the shot was going to come from that corner) might have expected Fin or Bowen to be the shooter. Just goes to show how many options Pop has and how smart he is about using them.

I'm not taking anything away from Barry - that was a hell of a shot on a night where he was nailing his shot time and time again . . . but note that Barry was NOT the first option on that play . . . that was a sophisticated play, where Manu taking a 3 off the inbound pass was the first option, Manu driving and drawing a foul was another option, and Barry @ the 3 was yet another option. It was a very cleverly drawn-up play by Pop. Damn brilliant, really, because it placed Sac in the crossfire of a dilemma: defend one option, and get burned by the other or the other.

[bnwhuxley]

Originally Posted by telecomguy

alright, let me post about Duncan then. Couple of things I noticed about Duncan last night. He seems to be being used as a pick n' roll pylon for Parker and Manu most of the time. This means he is standing around high near the foul line area and sometimes further out. Is this the correct use of Tim? It seems mostly he ends up being too far from the rim to aggressively go for rebounds in the offensive zone. I am thinking he needs to be playing the classic post up game and then run the ball through him so that (1) he gets more touches, and (2) they can play the inside-outside game. It may be that Pop is trying to draw whoever is covering Tim to follow him to high so that it opens up the post area for Parker and Ginobilli to attack (one less big for them to worry about). This makes sense to a certain extent but as result, Spurs lose any offensive rebounding and post up play from Duncan because he is hanging around the Horry area (high up).

Why not use Horry as a pylon and let Tim stay close to the basket so he can be more aggressive near the rim for tip-ins, rebounds, and post option? Tim used to get lot of garbage points because he used to LIVE in the post area. Now he has almost become another Brad Miller type, hovering around the periphery, being used as a screener for Parker and Gino to do their thing. Use Horry or another forward for that. That doesn't require lot of skill. What we need is more offensive rebounding and inside presence on the offensive end.

Am i missing something here?

I guess you've been missing the entire season. Tim has been screening for those two since forever. Why make noise now?

When Tim screens for Tony at the top, if the defense is a little slow in reacting to the screen, Tony will put on the jets and get into the paint in a microsec. If the defense adjusts well, Tony has the option to pass the ball to Tim at the top. Tim used to shoot the long J from there. Nowadays he makes use of the gap that Tony creates through attention to dribble drive into the paint.

With Manu, Tim often does the classic pick and roll, and Manu often throws him the ball, though Manu has been somewhat uncharacteristically inaccurate with the pass nowadays. Other times, the screen is effective enough for Manu to drive all the way to the basket.

Tim is bigger than Horry, so he can set more solid screens (not to mention he gets more playing time). Indeed the best screen-setter amongst the Spurs Bigmen is none other than the Solid Slovenian himself - Rasho. Why? Because he's a 7 footer with pounds and a jumpshot.

[Kager]

This may be unpopular.... but I see tels point.... TD has been shooting outside to much this year, that may be due to not being 100% but he should be having his way with them inside.

Cause there is no other reliable post presence and as said Rasho is a good screen, who can also knock down the j.

[Benchwarmer]

Originally Posted by MarineForLife

but note that Barry was NOT the first option on that play . . . that was a sophisticated play, where Manu taking a 3 off the inbound pass was the first option, Manu driving and drawing a foul was another option, and Barry @ the 3 was yet another option.

I was under the impression that it was a misdirection play; that it was intentionally set up for Barry, since the attention would be drawn onto Manu driving.

[telecomguy]

Originally Posted by bnwhuxley

I guess you've been missing the entire season. Tim has been screening for those two since forever. Why make noise now?

When Tim screens for Tony at the top, if the defense is a little slow in reacting to the screen, Tony will put on the jets and get into the paint in a microsec. If the defense adjusts well, Tony has the option to pass the ball to Tim at the top. Tim used to shoot the long J from there. Nowadays he makes use of the gap that Tony creates through attention to dribble drive into the paint.

With Manu, Tim often does the classic pick and roll, and Manu often throws him the ball, though Manu has been somewhat uncharacteristically inaccurate with the pass nowadays. Other times, the screen is effective enough for Manu to drive all the way to the basket.

Tim is bigger than Horry, so he can set more solid screens (not to mention he gets more playing time). Indeed the best screen-setter amongst the Spurs Bigmen is none other than the Solid Slovenian himself - Rasho. Why? Because he's a 7 footer with pounds and a jumpshot.

Tim is missing his jumpers......besides that was NEVER his game. And the last thing we want him to be doing is to take the ball high and try to dribble through the "gap" that Tony supposedly creates because Duncan can get stripped on the way to the basket but also has to make a huge effort to get to the rim from the perimeter.

This is very simple. Tim should be playing near the basket so he can do his post moves and dish out for 3 pointers and also get offensive rebounds. He is being used like Brad Miller and this is NOT the best way to utilize his talent. I doubt that we will be able to beat very good teams like Dallas or Detroit, relying on 3 pointers or Parker and Manu to slash their way into the paint off Duncan picks. These guys are just too tough under the rim and their help defense will gobble up and close off the lanes lot quicker than the Sacromento pansies. We cannot rely on the current style to beat top teams. Pop must recognize this.

[dark21horse]

Originally Posted by Benchwarmer

I was under the impression that it was a misdirection play; that it was intentionally set up for Barry, since the attention would be drawn onto Manu driving.

I was under that same impression since Espn reported that way and Timmy was there to screen the guy who had defensive responsibilty for Barry (Bibby).

[DizzG]

Pop must recognize this.

You should have called Pop on his show yesterday to tell him his system is all wrong

[bonnington]

Originally Posted by DizzG

You should have called Pop on his show yesterday to tell him his system is all wrong

[polk]

Originally Posted by MarineForLife

I'm not taking anything away from Barry - that was a hell of a shot on a night where he was nailing his shot time and time again . . . but note that Barry was NOT the first option on that play . . . that was a sophisticated play, where Manu taking a 3 off the inbound pass was the first option, Manu driving and drawing a foul was another option, and Barry @ the 3 was yet another option. It was a very cleverly drawn-up play by Pop. Damn brilliant, really, because it placed Sac in the crossfire of a dilemma: defend one option, and get burned by the other or the other.

Complete misdirection play as evidence by the weak side screen by Duncan on Bibby. It was Barry's all the time. I guess Manu could have been the first option if when he received the ball no one came to guard him.

[PHANTOM21]

lets talk about rasho instead...... noone ever talks about him

[Joe Tango from San Diego]

Actually, It was an option play, and Duncan sets the screen regardless. Manu was to take a 3 if available, drive to the the basket to decide if the defense will foul him if he shoots or if his driving to the basket creates movement to free up a pass to Barry in the corner where Manu knows he is going...
Bottom line, under no circumstances should the kings have given the Spurs an open look at a 3 point shot..... Still, WHAT A GREAT SHOT BY BRENT!!!

[spurs99]

Originally Posted by MarineForLife

I'm not taking anything away from Barry - that was a hell of a shot on a night where he was nailing his shot time and time again . . . but note that Barry was NOT the first option on that play . . . that was a sophisticated play, where Manu taking a 3 off the inbound pass was the first option, Manu driving and drawing a foul was another option, and Barry @ the 3 was yet another option. It was a very cleverly drawn-up play by Pop. Damn brilliant, really, because it placed Sac in the crossfire of a dilemma: defend one option, and get burned by the other or the other.

.....

POP said on his radio show that they were going for the 3 pointer.....it was pretty much the play he drew up............

[Joe Tango from San Diego]

I'll say this.. If it was exactly the way Pop drew it up, it shows how much confidence he has in Brent.

When he says they were going for 3, the options we are all talking about lead to 3 pointers, First Manu, then Manu looking for a basket and an and one, then the kickout to Brent.

Keep in mind on the Memorial Day Miracle, the option was to go to Sean in the corner or go to Steve Kerr popping to the top of the 3 point arc.... You can see portland take a delay of game to see how the Spurs were going to move, then Steve and Sean deciding who is going to go where....

[spurs99]

Originally Posted by telecomguy

alright, let me post about Duncan then. Couple of things I noticed about Duncan last night. He seems to be being used as a pick n' roll pylon for Parker and Manu most of the time. This means he is standing around high near the foul line area and sometimes further out. Is this the correct use of Tim? It seems mostly he ends up being too far from the rim to aggressively go for rebounds in the offensive zone. I am thinking he needs to be playing the classic post up game and then run the ball through him so that (1) he gets more touches, and (2) they can play the inside-outside game. It may be that Pop is trying to draw whoever is covering Tim to follow him to high so that it opens up the post area for Parker and Ginobilli to attack (one less big for them to worry about). This makes sense to a certain extent but as result, Spurs lose any offensive rebounding and post up play from Duncan because he is hanging around the Horry area (high up).

Why not use Horry as a pylon and let Tim stay close to the basket so he can be more aggressive near the rim for tip-ins, rebounds, and post option? Tim used to get lot of garbage points because he used to LIVE in the post area. Now he has almost become another Brad Miller type, hovering around the periphery, being used as a screener for Parker and Gino to do their thing. Use Horry or another forward for that. That doesn't require lot of skill. What we need is more offensive rebounding and inside presence on the offensive end.

Am i missing something here?

The MISSING pylon is RASHO...he sets up great picks for TP or Manu.....if Nazr would set better ones than Rasho....Timmy would play closer to the basket....

[telecomguy]

Originally Posted by spurs99

[/b]

The MISSING pylon is RASHO...he sets up great picks for TP or Manu.....if Nazr would set better ones than Rasho....Timmy would play closer to the basket....

exactly how difficult is it to set picks? I mean it's not like it takes huge amount of skill, dexterity, hand-to-eye coordination or atheleticism to set PICKS!

Nazr is better to have around the rim for offensive rebounds (like Duncan) so they really should use either Horry (first option) or Finley, or Rasho (who never gets offensive rebounds anyways) and keep Duncan and Nazr in the paint area.

This seems like a no-brainer to me. Why waste Duncan's talent high up in the perimeter to set picks or screens? There are lots of Spurs who can do that.

[dark21horse]

Originally Posted by telecomguy

exactly how difficult is it to set picks? I mean it's not like it takes huge amount of skill, dexterity, hand-to-eye coordination or atheleticism to set PICKS!

Nazr is better to have around the rim for offensive rebounds (like Duncan) so they really should use either Horry (first option) or Finley, or Rasho (who never gets offensive rebounds anyways) and keep Duncan and Nazr in the paint area.

This seems like a no-brainer to me. Why waste Duncan's talent high up in the perimeter to set picks or screens? There are lots of Spurs who can do that.

Maybe Pop knows something you don't??? The man does have 3 rings to his credit....maybe you should cut him some slack??

[telecomguy]

Originally Posted by dark21horse

Maybe Pop knows something you don't??? The man does have 3 rings to his credit....maybe you should cut him some slack??

Hey I am a great fan of Pop. I am asking this question retorically to find out if I am misunderstanding something here. So I posted it hoping that a more knowledgeable Spur fan would be able to come up with a logical reason why Duncan is being used as a pylon.

Duncan was becoming much more aggressive in the paint area in the last few weeks of the season and I fully expected him to be hanging around the post area demanding the ball, and creating lot of pressure against Sacramento's weak post defenders. Instead they are playing perimeter basketball.....luckily the Spurs are shooting the lights out of 3's but how LONG is that going to continue?

[dark21horse]

Originally Posted by telecomguy

Hey I am a great fan of Pop. I am asking this question retorically to find out if I am misunderstanding something here.

If you are asking a "rhetorical" question it means you are NOT expecting an answer so why ask the question??????

[telecomguy]

Originally Posted by dark21horse

If you are asking a "rhetorical" question it means you are NOT expecting an answer so why ask the question??????

What I meant to say was that I am not questioning Pop's strategy (or is this something that players on the court naturally decide?). I am sure there is a reason for this. Did Duncan used to play in the perimeter area so much back when he was dominant? Either it is a strategy (for some oblique reasons that i don't understand) or Duncan is saving his energy for the real series coming up.

[dark21horse]

Originally Posted by telecomguy

What I meant to say was that I am not questioning Pop's strategy (or is this something that players on the court naturally decide?). I am sure there is a reason for this. Did Duncan used to play in the perimeter area so much back when he was dominant? Either it is a strategy (for some oblique reasons that i don't understand) or Duncan is saving his energy for the real series coming up.

I don't think anyone really knows unless they are in Pop's inner circle. We can speculate. If I was to speculate, I would say that Pop is trying to create more space/driving lanes for TP and Manu. I will be the 1st to say I don't know, but I ....just like everyone else in here.....I can guess.

[telecomguy]

Originally Posted by dark21horse

I don't think anyone really knows unless they are in Pop's inner circle. We can speculate. If I was to speculate, I would say that Pop is trying to create more space/driving lanes for TP and Manu. I will be the 1st to say I don't know, but I ....just like everyone else in here.....I can guess.

anyway as long as Parker and Manu are driving to the hoop at will and the Spurs are winning, I don't care (just as Ducan probably doesn't care being the consummate team player that he is)...........I just think things will be somewhat different when they face a real TOUGH defensive team -- then Duncan will know he has to go into the paint and suck the defenders into him (and if they don't double/triple team him, go aggressive to the hoop and pound them into sumbmission).

As I said, I have no problem saving Duncan for the Dallas, Phoenix/LA,.....and ultimately the most important series against Pistons. Who cares if Duncan is not producing against Sacramento as long as we advance.

[dark21horse]

Originally Posted by telecomguy

anyway as long as Parker and Manu are driving to the hoop at will and the Spurs are winning, I don't care (just as Ducan probably doesn't care being the consummate team player that he is)...........I just think things will be somewhat different when they face a real TOUGH defensive team -- then Duncan will know he has to go into the paint and suck the defenders into him (and if they don't double/triple team him, go aggressive to the hoop and pound them into sumbmission).

As I said, I have no problem saving Duncan for the Dallas, Phoenix/LA,.....and ultimately the most important series against Pistons. Who cares if Duncan is not producing against Sacramento as long as we advance.

[bnwhuxley]

Originally Posted by telecomguy

Tim is missing his jumpers......besides that was NEVER his game. And the last thing we want him to be doing is to take the ball high and try to dribble through the "gap" that Tony supposedly creates because Duncan can get stripped on the way to the basket but also has to make a huge effort to get to the rim from the perimeter.

I ask again. Tim has been doing this ALL SEASON LONG. Heck, he's been doing it ALL OF LAST SEASON. Why are you making noise about it now?????????

You underestimate what Tim can do when he gets the ball at the free throw line extended. He can still choose to shoot the ball. If he drives into the paint to shoot a running hook or floater, I've almost never seen him stripped. Last, guys leave him open, meaning that besides shooting he also has the best view of the entire floor to find cutters.

This is very simple. Tim should be playing near the basket so he can do his post moves and dish out for 3 pointers and also get offensive rebounds. He is being used like Brad Miller and this is NOT the best way to utilize his talent.

He's been doing that as well. 4-down is still a mainstay of the offense. Didn't you see all those times he did exactly that?

But the Spurs offense is now balanced enough that we don't have to rely on 4-down.

I doubt that we will be able to beat very good teams like Dallas or Detroit, relying on 3 pointers or Parker and Manu to slash their way into the paint off Duncan picks. These guys are just too tough under the rim and their help defense will gobble up and close off the lanes lot quicker than the Sacromento pansies.

We cannot rely on the current style to beat top teams. Pop must recognize this.

Dribble penetration is now the preferred method of attack for virtually all teams, because of the handcheck rules. We have two of the best dribble penetrators in the business. They are a huge part of what this team does offensively.

But at the end of the day, it is only one weapon. We still have 4-down, small ball and the motion offense, plus the setplays. As long as the Spurs execute, they have plenty of options to score against even a team like the Pistons.

[The Notorious MI21]

If he drives into the paint to shoot a running hook or floater, I've almost never seen him stripped.

That is the one of the most ricdiculous things I've seen posted recently.

Tim has always been a walking turnover machine when he puts the ball down anywhere within 15 feet of the hoop. In fact, you can tell when he is really struggling for form, because he keeps bringing the ball low or trying to dribble through traffic.


This has always been one of Tim's glaring weaknesses, actually.

[bnwhuxley]

Originally Posted by The Notorious MI21

That is the one of the most ricdiculous things I've seen posted recently.

Tim has always been a walking turnover machine when he puts the ball down anywhere within 15 feet of the hoop. In fact, you can tell when he is really struggling for form, because he keeps bringing the ball low or trying to dribble through traffic.


This has always been one of Tim's glaring weaknesses, actually.

He gets stripped quite often when he's driving from his left block, because of a doubleteaming guard or a guy who slaps down just as he turns for the jumphook.

But driving in at the elbow after a pick and roll? Not often at all. Thats what I and that telecom guy were referring to.

Originally Posted by DizzG

You should have called Pop on his show yesterday to tell him his system is all wrong

It's not like the link wasn't there...