"Tim Duncan Somewhat Overated"

[BlitzKriegBop]

Originally Posted by Supernatural Anesthetist

How can someone have watched the 4th quarter of game 7 in the finals last year and still doubt Duncans clutchness...I'm just flabbergasted.

I'm not saying that tim duncan is nowhere near clutch. I'm just saying in comparison to people like manu or kobe or tmac, he's an average clutch player. What limits his production more so in the deciding periods of the game is that he is a post player, who won't get open looks or have enough room to operate.

Those guys I mentioned all had the ability to create their own shot, and when the clock is running down and the defense is plugging up the post, that's about the only thing you can do. Bigmen cannot create their own shots like guards can. This is NOT a knock on tim, as even if he was taking the game winning shot in the game I'd expect it to go in. Tim comes through when it counts, as he had shown in game 7 last year. But tell me, if there were 3 seconds left and the spurs had one last shot, who would you want with the ball? I'd say you'd either pick horry, manu, tony, or (God-willing) Nick.

[Supernatural Anesthetist]

Originally Posted by BlitzKriegBop

I'm not saying that tim duncan is nowhere near clutch. I'm just saying in comparison to people like manu or kobe or tmac, he's an average clutch player. What limits his production more so in the deciding periods of the game is that he is a post player, who won't get open looks or have enough room to operate.

Those guys I mentioned all had the ability to create their own shot, and when the clock is running down and the defense is plugging up the post, that's about the only thing you can do. Bigmen cannot create their own shots like guards can. This is NOT a knock on tim, as even if he was taking the game winning shot in the game I'd expect it to go in. Tim comes through when it counts, as he had shown in game 7 last year. But tell me, if there were 3 seconds left and the spurs had one last shot, who would you want with the ball? I'd say you'd either pick horry, manu, tony, or (God-willing) Nick.

Tim Freakin' Duncan thats who.

Remember the shot before .4? No of course not...

[Duncan21]

Originally Posted by Spurs817

Found this on HoopsHype's list of the next 10 greatest NBA players....

http://www.hoopshype.com/columns/greatest_hans.htm

7) Tim Duncan. I consider Duncan somewhat overrated, because he’s a center who bills himself as a power forward and thus often gets compared to those who play the 4 spot. But just because he can’t hold a candle
to Hakeem Olajuwon doesn’t mean he’s not great. Patrick Ewing couldn’t either, and he’s great. I put Duncan at Ewing’s level, right down to the shakiness in clutch situations. That said, he’s a deserving choice for the Top 60.

This dude needs to get his head outta his ass.

[Buzzsaw]

This guy is a much better writer than Tim is a basketball player, right?

[atownspursfan]

Just because a writer like Dennis Hans criticizes Tim doesn't make him a moron, idiot, crap, poop, clueless, or whatever you want to call him...i was just pointing out how he could think what he wrote in his article, which is the viewpoint of many sports writers. As most of you know (or don't know), the spurs don't have many fans outside of san antonio...now, to defend myself:

- I said accolades and honors aside, so forget about the MVP this, championships that arguement...Jordan was a much greater player than Russell (per making a list of the greatest players ever), as were a few others, but none came close to his championships...
- TheChillFactor, how old are you?..yes, I do think d. rob, in his prime, was better than duncan. did you ever see 5-0 between his rookie season up until 1996ish? He was a beast with freakish athletic ability, much like amare, but with better D...robinson never had the supporting cast, coach, nor system that duncan has had.
- I did watch the 4th quarter of game 7 in the finals last year...he didn't exactly put the team on his back. i think bowen and ginobili had as much, if not more, to do with the outcome than duncan did (which brought up the whole manu for mvp thing). duncan played well, really consistent, but he didn't "dominate" or "take over" the game. On the contrary, have you watched the latter quarters of game 5? he made 1 of 7 free throws in the 4th, missed a simple, game-winning tip at the end of regulation and both of his shots in overtime, and fumbled a pass from Horry when the Spurs had the opportunity to tie the game in the finl minutes...thank the lord for robert horry!
- as far as the pain/playing through injury arguement, which is why he hasn't been playing well recently, I can't really take a stance on that since I don't REALLY know the extent of his injury, how much it REALLY effects his game, how long he has been playing through pain, etc. I do acknowledge that he is playing through some pain, but "the best of all time" having only, what, 2 20+ pt games in the past 15 games or so? c'mon! Do you know his averages for Feb.? 15 pts, 11 boards...best of all time, eh? That is NOT Duncanesque. All players play through injuries, but something must REALLY be wrong. I think some other poster posted something a few days ago saying that Duncan has not looked "dominant" since the 02-03 season...I concur...has the plantar foot thing been bothering him that long?

Anyhow, I am a HUGE spurs fan, or basketball fan for that matter, and I do think Duncan is top 25 greatest...I never said I agree with Dennis Hans...I was just pointing out how he could think what he thinks. What keeps Duncan in the discussion, for me, isn't the stats. He understands the game VERY well, he knows where to be at the right times, and his teammates and coaches LOVE him...clutch or not, center or power forward, you can build a championship team around this guy...

[SRJ]

atown:

Those 4th quarter threes you refer to? Watch the fourth quarter again. Five Pistons all had a foot in the paint watching Duncan on the block. He got the ball back to them for wide-open threes. Good pro players make wide open threes, and Duncan created those.

Duncan created those looks in the third quarter. In the third quarter of Game Seven, the Spurs were down nine points. Guess who got the ball to get us out of that mess.

[Supernatural Anesthetist]

Originally Posted by atownspursfan

Just because a writer like Dennis Hans criticizes Tim doesn't make him a moron, idiot, crap, poop, clueless, or whatever you want to call him...i was just pointing out how he could think what he wrote in his article, which is the viewpoint of many sports writers. As most of you know (or don't know), the spurs don't have many fans outside of san antonio...now, to defend myself:

- I said accolades and honors aside, so forget about the MVP this, championships that arguement...Jordan was a much greater player than Russell (per making a list of the greatest players ever), as were a few others, but none came close to his championships...
- TheChillFactor, how old are you?..yes, I do think d. rob, in his prime, was better than duncan. did you ever see 5-0 between his rookie season up until 1996ish? He was a beast with freakish athletic ability, much like amare, but with better D...robinson never had the supporting cast, coach, nor system that duncan has had.
- I did watch the 4th quarter of game 7 in the finals last year...he didn't exactly put the team on his back. i think bowen and ginobili had as much, if not more, to do with the outcome than duncan did (which brought up the whole manu for mvp thing). duncan played well, really consistent, but he didn't "dominate" or "take over" the game. On the contrary, have you watched the latter quarters of game 5? he made 1 of 7 free throws in the 4th, missed a simple, game-winning tip at the end of regulation and both of his shots in overtime, and fumbled a pass from Horry when the Spurs had the opportunity to tie the game in the finl minutes...thank the lord for robert horry!
- as far as the pain/playing through injury arguement, which is why he hasn't been playing well recently, I can't really take a stance on that since I don't REALLY know the extent of his injury, how much it REALLY effects his game, how long he has been playing through pain, etc. I do acknowledge that he is playing through some pain, but "the best of all time" having only, what, 2 20+ pt games in the past 15 games or so? c'mon! Do you know his averages for Feb.? 15 pts, 11 boards...best of all time, eh? That is NOT Duncanesque. All players play through injuries, but something must REALLY be wrong. I think some other poster posted something a few days ago saying that Duncan has not looked "dominant" since the 02-03 season...I concur...has the plantar foot thing been bothering him that long?

Anyhow, I am a HUGE spurs fan, or basketball fan for that matter, and I do think Duncan is top 25 greatest...I never said I agree with Dennis Hans...I was just pointing out how he could think what he thinks. What keeps Duncan in the discussion, for me, isn't the stats. He understands the game VERY well, he knows where to be at the right times, and his teammates and coaches LOVE him...clutch or not, center or power forward, you can build a championship team around this guy...

Ummm....yes, it does.


Obviously you have some memory impairment... I suggest rewatching particularly crunch time, and take notes.

[PhillyDoc]

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_16187.shtml

By yours truly that has him 2 right now in a close race for 1 (free article can be opened by all) maily because of his injuries.

[

By yours truly that has him 2 right now in a close race for 1 (free article can be opened by all) because of his injuries could not in all fairness put him at 1 but he is "right there".

[DizzG]

...i was just pointing out how he could think what he wrote in his article, which is the viewpoint of many sports writers

I havent seen "Many" sportswriters think Duncan is overrated or not a clutch player

many think he is one of the best PF to play the game or certainly in that catagory when he retires. The writers comments were moronic...dont think most people feel that way. Your comments just show a clueless opinion on Duncan..someone thats basing things mostly on this season where he is playing HURT

[vand3537]

Originally Posted by atownspursfan

Just because a writer like Dennis Hans criticizes Tim doesn't make him a moron, idiot, crap, poop, clueless, or whatever you want to call him...i was just pointing out how he could think what he wrote in his article, which is the viewpoint of many sports writers. As most of you know (or don't know), the spurs don't have many fans outside of san antonio...now, to defend myself:

- I said accolades and honors aside, so forget about the MVP this, championships that arguement...Jordan was a much greater player than Russell (per making a list of the greatest players ever), as were a few others, but none came close to his championships...
- TheChillFactor, how old are you?..yes, I do think d. rob, in his prime, was better than duncan. did you ever see 5-0 between his rookie season up until 1996ish? He was a beast with freakish athletic ability, much like amare, but with better D...robinson never had the supporting cast, coach, nor system that duncan has had.
- I did watch the 4th quarter of game 7 in the finals last year...he didn't exactly put the team on his back. i think bowen and ginobili had as much, if not more, to do with the outcome than duncan did (which brought up the whole manu for mvp thing). duncan played well, really consistent, but he didn't "dominate" or "take over" the game. On the contrary, have you watched the latter quarters of game 5? he made 1 of 7 free throws in the 4th, missed a simple, game-winning tip at the end of regulation and both of his shots in overtime, and fumbled a pass from Horry when the Spurs had the opportunity to tie the game in the finl minutes...thank the lord for robert horry!
- as far as the pain/playing through injury arguement, which is why he hasn't been playing well recently, I can't really take a stance on that since I don't REALLY know the extent of his injury, how much it REALLY effects his game, how long he has been playing through pain, etc. I do acknowledge that he is playing through some pain, but "the best of all time" having only, what, 2 20+ pt games in the past 15 games or so? c'mon! Do you know his averages for Feb.? 15 pts, 11 boards...best of all time, eh? That is NOT Duncanesque. All players play through injuries, but something must REALLY be wrong. I think some other poster posted something a few days ago saying that Duncan has not looked "dominant" since the 02-03 season...I concur...has the plantar foot thing been bothering him that long?

Anyhow, I am a HUGE spurs fan, or basketball fan for that matter, and I do think Duncan is top 25 greatest...I never said I agree with Dennis Hans...I was just pointing out how he could think what he thinks. What keeps Duncan in the discussion, for me, isn't the stats. He understands the game VERY well, he knows where to be at the right times, and his teammates and coaches LOVE him...clutch or not, center or power forward, you can build a championship team around this guy...

no matter what duncan does, what kind of stats he puts up,, or how well the team is playing, he's regarded as the best in the game and top 10 all time. that is overrated if you ask me, what everyone in this thread is forgetting is just how good those other players were too, hakeem was rediculously good, better then duncan, does anyone even remember how badly he outplayed robinson in those two championship years?
ewing was a great baskell player too, its not an insult to compare duncan to him.
as far as players of all time, i put duncan in the 25 to 40th range, he's great, but has won championships as part of great teams with great coaching. he's not better then hakeem and others just cause he has more rings, Dilfer wasn't a better QB then Marino.

[SRJ]

Name 24-39 players better than Duncan, van.

[vand3537]

Originally Posted by Spurs 2-0, Rockets 2-2, Jazz 0-2

Name 24-39 players better than Duncan, van.

i've only been waching basketball since the early 90's, so someone else would have to contribute players from the time before then, but right off hand, in no paticular order, players that i think were/are better then duncan:

Wilt
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Karl Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kobe , yes Kobe, you can not deny how freakishly good he is
Larry Bird
Stockton
Jordan
Magic


Maybe's:
Charles Barkley
Pete Maravich
Shaq
D Robinson
KG
Pippin

there's got to be about 10 more players better then duncan from before my time
:op

[SRJ]

van, to the right of the players you listed I offer my comments:

Wilt - yes
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - yes
Karl Malone - no
Hakeem Olajuwon - roughly equal IMO
Kobe , yes Kobe, you can not deny how freakishly good he is - no
Larry Bird - yes
Stockton - yes
Jordan - yes
Magic - roughly equal


Maybe's:
Charles Barkley - no
Pete Maravich - good God, not even close
Shaq - roughly equal
D Robinson - no
KG - no
Pippin - no

I've been watching since the early 80's, to give you my background.

I get the impression you are swayed by larger point totals, for example your comment on Kobe and the idea that Maravich might be better than Duncan.

[bnwhuxley]

Wilt - Yes
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
Karl Malone - No
Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
Kobe , yes Kobe, you can not deny how freakishly good he is - No
Larry Bird - Yes
Stockton - No
Jordan - Yes
Magic - Yes


Maybe's:
Charles Barkley - No
Pete Maravich - No
Shaq - Greater, but not better
D Robinson - No
KG - Hell no
Pippen - No

[maldoror]

Originally Posted by Spurs 2-0, Rockets 2-2, Jazz 0-2

van, to the right of the players you listed I offer my comments:

Wilt - Yes
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yes
Karl Malone - No
Hakeem Olajuwon - Yes
Kobe , yes Kobe, you can not deny how freakishly good he is - No
Larry Bird - Yes
Stockton - No
Jordan - Yes
Magic - Yes

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem are in a class by themselves. It's those five, and then there are the rest of the players.

Second tier below them are players like Russell, Hakeem, Shaq, Tim, Malone. (Not saying they are all equal necessarily.) Malone is the weak link in that group with no championships but Jordan is what kept him from a ring.

I'd put Stockton and Kobe in the third tier. Stockton was never MVP material like Malone. Kobe could easily move up by the time he's done playing depending on how his career plays out. Still only 27.

[pjjrfan]

I don't believe Tim is overrated. I've been watching basketball since the late 60's, and this is one reason why I hate that people use scoring to judge how great a player is. I remember Tim's rookie year and the first time he got to the playoffs, mind you, I was not sold on how good Tim was. It was the Phoenix series, I think it's the one where Avery uttered the famous, " I will not be abused" line. I don't know if it was game 3 or game 4 but it was the fourth qtr. and I remember Tim scoring on like 6 or more consecutive possessions, and he used a variety of moves, all on the low post, and on one brilliant move that utterly convinced me this guy was for real he put a move on his defender where the defender anticipated the shot and made him miss, two or three plays later he did the same move only this time he faked him and moved around him for an easy basket. I remember thinking my God this guy is a monster, and he is on our team.

Tim is struggling this year, and last year also, but this guy has been a monster since he came into the league, offensively no one had an answer for him, even now with his gimpy leg how often do you see any team play him one on one? Not often, although on occasion someone will foolishly attempt this. No coach will go into a game against SA without some kind of game plan to stop Tim. This is a guy who completely sucks the life out teams interior defense and makes them sag in so badly he has made stars out of Jaren Jackson, SJax, a young Tony and Manu, hell he even made Hedo look good for a season. I just laugh when people compare Garnett, Rasheed, Webber any of the modern power forwards to Timmy, none of them have the impact or game to dominate the paint that this future hall of famer have. Hell, even Drob realized what a force this young man was. Athletically there many better players than Tim, but as basketball players this is a once in a lifetime guy. Big men like Tim don't come around that often.

If Tim never wins another title, which I hope is not the case, Tim must be hailed as great a player as Shag, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Jabber, Russell, Wilt, and the other greats from before the 60's that helped shape the game.

[curiousspirit]

Whether Tim is top 10 or top 25, he is not overrated. IMO, he is top 10. Those who believe he is overrated are just jealous.

[Jason R]

Wilt - yes
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - yes
Karl Malone - no
Hakeem Olajuwon - maybe
Kobe , yes Kobe, you can not deny how freakishly good he is - no
Larry Bird - yes
Stockton - no
Jordan - yes
Magic - yes


Maybe's:
Charles Barkley - no
Pete Maravich - no
Shaq - roughly equal
D Robinson - no
KG - no
Pippin - no

A few addenums
Pistol Pete was fantastic on the handles but is NOT better by any stretch of the imagination. Additionally, the Admiral, as great an athlete as he was, never stretched his game sufficiently. KG has played in the TD era and never come close to his accomplishments. Karl Malone would only possible be considered better because he played so consistently for so long, but come playoffs - egg.

TD has a limited skill set in terms of athletic ability yes, but his defense, his ability to draw in opponent's defense, his ability to play a game from the outside and inside, not to mention playing in a time of tougher defense all give him good marks. He's shown himself more than a few times to be great in the playoffs, with clutch shots, by carrying his team, and has done so with a changing roster.

The only clear superiors from that list are Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabar. Time will tell how Duncan's legacy plays out.

Kobe Bryant is more talented than Tim Duncan, but that does not translate into being a better player than Timmy.

[maldoror]

Originally Posted by Jason R

Wilt - yes
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - yes
Karl Malone - no
Hakeem Olajuwon - maybe
Kobe , yes Kobe, you can not deny how freakishly good he is - no
Larry Bird - yes
Stockton - no
Jordan - yes
Magic - yes


Maybe's:
Charles Barkley - no
Pete Maravich - no
Shaq - roughly equal
D Robinson - no
KG - no
Pippin - no

A few addenums
Pistol Pete was fantastic on the handles but is NOT better by any stretch of the imagination. Additionally, the Admiral, as great an athlete as he was, never stretched his game sufficiently. KG has played in the TD era and never come close to his accomplishments. Karl Malone would only possible be considered better because he played so consistently for so long, but come playoffs - egg.

TD has a limited skill set in terms of athletic ability yes, but his defense, his ability to draw in opponent's defense, his ability to play a game from the outside and inside, not to mention playing in a time of tougher defense all give him good marks. He's shown himself more than a few times to be great in the playoffs, with clutch shots, by carrying his team, and has done so with a changing roster.

The only clear superiors from that list are Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabar. Time will tell how Duncan's legacy plays out.

Kobe Bryant is more talented than Tim Duncan, but that does not translate into being a better player than Timmy.

I generally agree with these comments but Malone laid an egg because of the Jordan/Pippen and Phil Jackson combo. I think Tim would have struggled getting a ring against those Bulls teams too.

[bnwhuxley]

Originally Posted by maldoror

I generally agree with these comments but Malone laid an egg because of the Jordan/Pippen and Phil Jackson combo. I think Tim would have struggled getting a ring against those Bulls teams.

Doesn't matter. Malone doesn't have the same impact on a game that Tim has. He's an excellent scorer, can get to the line, and is a pretty solid one-on-one defender. But his team D is ordinary (edit: sucks is too strong. He does take charges, but he doesn't intimidate in the basket area), he's uber un-clutch, and he's not even the real leader on his Jazz team (that's Stockton).

Nah, TD > Malone, no doubt.