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  #1  
Old 01-20-06, 11:07 PM
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why is gary payton so highly thought of?

i dont get it...everyone makes it seem like he was, and still is, one of the all time greats, they say hes a hall of famer...how so?
what was his typical stat line for the few years in his prime? 18 points and 8 assists?
he never won anything either, i dont remember him making any huge memorable plays, and its not like his style is real flashy....
he was always one of the better pg's in the league but he was never more that an all-star for a few seasons only.
if hes a hall of famer then so is marbury, nick van exel, sean elliott, steve francis, ect...
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  #2  
Old 01-20-06, 11:09 PM
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In his prime, he had a great post-up game and was one of the assist leaders every year. He also was probably the best defensive point guard of the 1990s. However, he is several years past his prime and he's only chasing a ring at this point.

Last edited by LAsucksForever; 01-20-06 at 11:12 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-20-06, 11:17 PM
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<---closet gary payton fan

but that was way back in the day.
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  #4  
Old 01-20-06, 11:19 PM
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They didn't call him the Glove for nothing. When he still had his speed, along with the strength he has now, he was tough to get by on offense.
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  #5  
Old 01-20-06, 11:20 PM
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He was great back in the day... now, all there's left of him is his mouth.
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  #6  
Old 01-20-06, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAsucksForever
In his prime, he had a great post-up game and was one of the assist leaders every year. He also was probably the best defensive point guard of the 1990s.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by ennui30
They didn't call him the Glove for nothing. When he still had his speed, along with the strength he has now, he was tough to get by on offense.
sums it up
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  #7  
Old 01-20-06, 11:28 PM
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Its obvious whoever starts a topic like this never saw Payton play in his prime. BTW being flashy doesnt mean anything. Is Duncan Flashy?
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  #8  
Old 01-20-06, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslave
i dont get it...everyone makes it seem like he was, and still is, one of the all time greats, they say hes a hall of famer...how so?
what was his typical stat line for the few years in his prime? 18 points and 8 assists?
he never won anything either, i dont remember him making any huge memorable plays, and its not like his style is real flashy....
he was always one of the better pg's in the league but he was never more that an all-star for a few seasons only.
if hes a hall of famer then so is marbury, nick van exel, sean elliott, steve francis, ect...
Learn your history dude. Gary Payton IS one of the all time greats. He's a shell of what he once was no doubt, and his attitude rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but you're not giving the guy nearly enough credit for how great a player he truly was. He averaged at least 19 pts and 7 assists for TEN consecutive seasons and was all first team defensive first team for 9 straight seasons. As for "not winning anything", his prime came during MJ's prime. Who exactly besides MJ was winning anything during that period?
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  #9  
Old 01-20-06, 11:43 PM
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i know he was a good player, but there were lots of other guys just as good as he was that never get included in any 'hall of fame' talk.
and yes i was watching the nba during his prime. ive always thought he was rather overrated.
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  #10  
Old 01-21-06, 12:01 AM
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He'd have a ring if it wasn't for MJ, back in his hayday with an in shape Shawn Kemp
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  #11  
Old 01-21-06, 12:03 AM
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GP was one of the top point guards int he league in his prime. He could lock up any point guard and most guards, as most players realized running into Jordan in his prime meant no championship.
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  #12  
Old 01-21-06, 01:38 AM
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1997 Defensive Player of the Year. He's like one of the very, very, very few guards to ever win it.
He took the Sonics to the NBA Finals. He's another victim of Jordan's Bulls. Age hits hard. Payton still has some game and might be able to defend... something but seriously the guy hasn't been able to keep up with Tony since he entered the league.
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  #13  
Old 01-21-06, 01:48 AM
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payton is 40th all time in nba hall of fame monitor score at 160. here are the scores for the 10 ten eligible players not inducted:

1. Paul Westphal 143
2. Dominique Wilkins 142
3. Artis Gilmore 140
4. Spencer Haywood 138
5. Bernard King 135
6. Dennis Johnson 134
7. Adrian Dantley 126
8. Jack Sikma 125
9. Larry Nance 122
10. Buck Williams 121

they are all a pretty good bunch there, and payton leads them all. and yes, the score does mean something.
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  #14  
Old 01-21-06, 02:46 AM
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Payton's 96 Sonics was probably the best team I've ever seen that didn't win a title. They were 64-18 and would destroy at least 3/4 of the teams that ended up winning titles IMO. They took a 72 win Bulls team to 6 from down 3-0, which has to count for something.

Gary Payton
Shawn Kemp
Sam Perkins
Hersey Hawkins
Detlef Shrempf
Frank Brickowski
Ervin Johnson
Coach: George Karl

That was a freaking stacked team.
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  #15  
Old 01-21-06, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave McNulla
payton is 40th all time in nba hall of fame monitor score at 160. here are the scores for the 10 ten eligible players not inducted:

1. Paul Westphal 143
2. Dominique Wilkins 142
3. Artis Gilmore 140
4. Spencer Haywood 138
5. Bernard King 135
6. Dennis Johnson 134
7. Adrian Dantley 126
8. Jack Sikma 125
9. Larry Nance 122
10. Buck Williams 121

they are all a pretty good bunch there, and payton leads them all. and yes, the score does mean something.
Thanks for posting that Dave...I've been occupied with the question of Artis Gilmore to the HOF for some time now. Just recently I went poring over the stats of he and several other players of his time.

If Dan Issel gets in, Gilmore gets in. That's Gilmore's strongest argument for. As you showed in your post, he's the best of the qualified centers not in the Hall.
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  #16  
Old 01-21-06, 03:06 AM
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If you have been watching NBA basketball at all during the past 15 years - and you still don't think Gary Payton is a Hall of Famer and one of the best combo guards of the his generation - you are either stupid or you're lying about how much you actually watched him play, and you don't really know squat.
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  #17  
Old 01-21-06, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
If you have been watching NBA basketball at all during the past 15 years - and you still don't think Gary Payton is a Hall of Famer and one of the best combo guards of the his generation - you are either stupid or you're lying about how much you actually watched him play, and you don't really know squat.


Powerslave obviously never saw Payton play in his prime or if he did he has no assessment skills. He is a lock for the Hall of Fame.

Last edited by maldoror; 01-21-06 at 05:27 PM.
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  #18  
Old 01-21-06, 06:38 AM
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I was never a big fan of Payton mostly cause of his mouth, but for a long time he was the premier point guard of the NBA. A defensive demon and a relentless player who used his strength and speed to dominate smaller and even bigger guards. I don't think there is any doubt of his HOF credentials.

It's just that mouth of his. He's lost a few steps and let me tell you Tony can make a lot of good point gaurds look bad. And it was Tony's play against Payton in the 2002 playoffs that made everyone aware that Tony had talent a lot of talent.
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  #19  
Old 01-21-06, 08:15 AM
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Actually the season and series that really high ligthed GP's decline (or beginning of it) was Tony Parker's rookie year series againts Seattle when GP's dad took him to do for letting TP use him the way he was. This was made all the more interesting, as you may remeber there had been talk of a draft fday trade of GP to the Spurs for Parker draft rights. (at least some light chatter in that regard). Payton is well into his thirties and and definitely a step or so slower. Guys like TP really magnify that sort of thing. As mentioned earlier, the redeaming thing with Payton was his height and ability to take smaller guards down low and post them up ala Marbury with Parker. I think Parker has even made strides to overcome people like that, which really makes it rough on older slower versions of declining greats like Payton. Perhaps we need to focus more on the positive side of our ledger and what it says than looking at how inept the other guy looks because of it. For example Parker's numbers tonight 18 shots vs Wade's 27 for 13 makes or compare the Parker and Wade turn overs, or even th fact that Parker finally got enough reaspect to get to the line 13 times, not mention that he made 10 of them. When Walton pointed out late in the game that parker had 30 plus points on just 17 shots it says volumes--Walton even. I know this is slightly away from Pyton, but only in the sense that Parker's star is still rising and and all ready burning brightly, whereas Payton's star is in free fall flame out mode and fading rapidly.
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  #20  
Old 01-21-06, 11:55 AM
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I remember when everyone wanted to trade Derek Anderson for Gary Payton. At the time Payton was the only guy in the league that contain that could contain Kobe and I was all for making the trade if it wasnt for his mouth, which in the end I believe was the reason the trade didnt go down. But make no mistake about it, for about a 5 year span it was Jason Kidd and Gary Payton as the premier PGs in the NBA.
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  #21  
Old 01-21-06, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
If you have been watching NBA basketball at all during the past 15 years - and you still don't think Gary Payton is a Hall of Famer and one of the best combo guards of the his generation - you are either stupid or you're lying about how much you actually watched him play, and you don't really know squat.
Ummmm i agree with most of this but isnt a bit immature to accuse someone of lying or being stupid?
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  #22  
Old 01-21-06, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs7794
Ummmm i agree with most of this but isnt a bit immature to accuse someone of lying or being stupid?
I realize that is a bit harsh - but someone has to point out how blatantly stupid this question really is. I seriously doubt that players like Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis and Nick Van Exel have ever gotten close to having this kind of a career:



Gary Payton

#2 Overall Pick - Seattle (1990 NBA Draft)

All NBA Team - 9 Times (1994-2002)

All Defensive First Team - 9 Consecutive seasons (1994-2002)

1996 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
(Payton is only the second guard to have won this award since 1988)

2 Time US Olympic Gold Medal Winner (1996,2000)

NBA All Star Team - 9 times (only voted in as a starter twice)

Led Seattle Sonics to NBA Finals in 1996.

Gary Payton is the ONLY player in NBA history to accumulate 20,000 points, 2,000 steals and 8,000 assists in his career.

Ranks 3rd on the All-Time Steals List

Ranks 6th on the All-Time Assists List

Career Numbers: 17.3 PPG - 7.0 APG - 4.1 RPG - 1.9 SPG


Gary Payton has always been a revered and respected player throughout the league. He is well-known for his trash-talk, but it was his stellar play on the floor that will one day allow him to enter the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame. His consistency over a ten year span as one of the top point guards in the NBA and certainly as the best defensive guard in the NBA cement his reputation. Payton, in his prime was a strong,physical guard capable of posting up, scoring from the perimiter or penetrating at will with his size and speed. On countless occasions, Payton would lead his team in scoring, assists, steals and yet still lock up the opponents best perimiter player on defense.

Payton is now seen by some, as somewhat of a journeymen player still in pursuit of that elusive NBA Championship. However, Payton is not the first NBA great to openly pursue that ring, nor will he be the last. Still, that should in no way detract from the great career he established in Seattle for 12 seasons and the accomplishments he has accumulated throughout his stellar NBA career.
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  #23  
Old 01-21-06, 01:51 PM
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Loving the facts keep on educating. People never seem to remember the past when a player gets old, although he's only three years removed from his last allstar game. Marbury and Francis sholdn't even be mentioned in the same breath as GP.
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  #24  
Old 01-21-06, 01:54 PM
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RichB well said.
As for the trash-talking...Bird was one of the best alltime trashtalkers. But, like GP, he also had the game to back it up. And that's what it's all about.
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  #25  
Old 01-21-06, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslave
i dont get it...everyone makes it seem like he was, and still is, one of the all time greats, they say hes a hall of famer...how so?
what was his typical stat line for the few years in his prime? 18 points and 8 assists?
he never won anything either, i dont remember him making any huge memorable plays, and its not like his style is real flashy....
he was always one of the better pg's in the league but he was never more that an all-star for a few seasons only.
if hes a hall of famer then so is marbury, nick van exel, sean elliott, steve francis, ect...
If you don't think 18 and 8 is a pretty good stat line for a point guard who also happened to be the best defensive guard in the league, then you need some more years of watching the game.

He's on the downside of a long career, but so are Shaq, Jason Kidd and some other players. Do you judge them on the basis of their declining years or their body of work?
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  #26  
Old 01-21-06, 02:58 PM
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Who is saying he is that great right now? The broadcasters or someone said he looks like he's "35 going on 55." guarding parker.

Anyway, He has has an amazing Career.
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  #27  
Old 01-21-06, 06:33 PM
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he was always one of the better guards in the league, he was good, but you guys are WAY overrating him.
RichB ive been watching the NBA since 95 which includes almost his whole career.
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  #28  
Old 01-21-06, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslave
he was always one of the better guards in the league, he was good, but you guys are WAY overrating him.
RichB ive been watching the NBA since 95 which includes almost his whole career.
Payton is a lock for the hall of fame. Hall of Famers are better than good. If you think his accomplishments do not warrant the Hall Of Fame I don't know what to say. It's a no-brainer.
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  #29  
Old 01-21-06, 08:36 PM
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The Sonics would have beat the Bulls in that series if not for Karl's ridiculous assignments, at least to my recollection.

He refused to have Payton on Jordan and kept Hawkins on MJ. He only switched Payton to Jordan after they were down 3-0. They came back and won 2 but still went down in 6.

Now I'm not saying that Payton was a Jordan stopper. But if you have someone who is a premiere defender and 1st teamer all nba, you put him on Jordan. It would be like the Spurs putting Barry on Kobe in a 7 game series instead of Bowen.
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Old 01-21-06, 08:42 PM
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RichB, perhaps the kid is very young and doesn't understand what makes a truly great player. I completely agree with what you say and can only add that plenty of times he busted our grills in SA and shot our eye balls...nuff said.
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  #31  
Old 01-21-06, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg06
He was great back in the day... now, all there's left of him is his mouth.
that's so true...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitzKriegBop
<---closet gary payton fan

but that was way back in the day.
Me too...
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  #32  
Old 01-21-06, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslave
he was always one of the better guards in the league, he was good, but you guys are WAY overrating him.
RichB ive been watching the NBA since 95 which includes almost his whole career.
He had some very good years before 95.
He's not being overrated. He's a lock for the Hall of Fame. Sorry you don't see that, but that's just the way it is.
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  #33  
Old 01-21-06, 10:36 PM
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Gary Payton probably should have retired about 2 years ago. He WAS great in the day. Does anyone remember Tony's first playoff series against Seattle when Tony punked him? That was sort of the end for Gary Payton.
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  #34  
Old 01-21-06, 10:40 PM
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Of the "4 HOFers" on the 2004 Lakers, Payton's claim for the honor was the most suspect.

Payton wasn't the signature, genius, top player that was John Stockton.

However, clearly Payton deserves the Hall of Fame. He was a tremendous player. I once watched him double team Steve Kerr at half-court. By himself.
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  #35  
Old 01-21-06, 11:20 PM
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Pop would have given his left nut to have GP on the Spurs back in his prime. A defensive minded, shut down PG with handle and a 8 asst/game avg? Oh man......Pop's dream player.
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  #36  
Old 01-22-06, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toribio Ortega
RichB, perhaps the kid is very young and doesn't understand what makes a truly great player. I completely agree with what you say and can only add that plenty of times he busted our grills in SA and shot our eye balls...nuff said.
im not a kid or very young
fine i give up payton is a living legend one of the greatest players of all time
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  #37  
Old 01-22-06, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerslave
im not a kid or very young
fine i give up payton is a living legend one of the greatest players of all time
Powerslave,

You are entitled to your opinion, even if folks like RichB behave like poorly when you voice it. Don't take it personally, as I'm sure RichB doesn't mean it that way .

You are wrong, however. As much as I hate to admit it - because I detest Payton - he has earned HOF induction. In that sense - and only in that sense - RichB is correct. However, some of the characterizations he used to refer to you were not correct; being wrong - even as wrong as you are on this one - doesn't warrant the kind of treatment you received in this thread. Hell, I've been spanked hard by the almighty mods for using verbage like that which RichB used here.




MomBear,

I'm surprised you didn't hand out a warning citation in this thread.
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  #38  
Old 01-22-06, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineForLife
MomBear,
I'm surprised you didn't hand out a warning citation in this thread.
I actually don't see a reason to issue some sort of warning. There was no back and forth banter between posters full of expletives and insults. Typically, in those situations MomBear (much to her credit) is pretty quick to snuff those out, delete them or just lock the thread. The fact that she didn't do it in this case should lead us to believe that this thread was (in esscence) - nothing.

If you go back to read my original post I made it clear when I said "IF you don't think Payton is a HOF then you are...." and while it seemed I was directing that strictly at Powerslave - I wasn't. That's my fault. That is not only directed at him, but all posters who want to rag on someone or slam someone without being better informed. Yes, many times it's a matter of opinion - but when your opinion is so far from reality than it becomes less valid IMHO.

I said what I said because it's the truth and I'm sure many long time fans that follow the NBA believe that as well - and history and the NBA record books prove us correct. What made the original post even less valid was comparing Payton to players like Marbury, Francis and Van Exel. That is when I knew this was just hate on Payton (in lieu of the Spurs/Heat game) and not even a legitimate question. I mean how ridiculous does that sound? Comparing Payton to a group of underachieveing, never done nothing guards? That's when I knew this thread was a joke.

We can sit here and debate over who was better: Olajuwon or Robinson? But no one in their right mind is going to dispute either players greatness or compare either to Brad Miller and Rik Smits.

Which is why in my second post - I referred to the thread as blatantly stupid. I never took personal shots at Powerslave and said "Hey Powerslave, F You Payton Rules!" or "Powerslave, you're a moron" as I know some posters on here and other boards are inclined to do. Resort to name calling and such, when they no longer have a case to stand on.

I don't need to do that - so I didn't.

I stated my case and said nothing else about it. More than one poster agreed with me and several state themselves that Payton was an elite player, likely a HOF lock. Two moderators and the site administrator posted after me, and none found it necessary to warn anyone, delete or lock this thread.

Powerslave gave his sarcastic concession and hopefully learned a bit more about "The Glove" than he didn't know before. Nothing personal, no hard feelings, no profanity or ugly name calling, no harm done.

End of thread.

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  #39  
Old 01-22-06, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAsucksForever
In his prime, he had a great post-up game and was one of the assist leaders every year. He also was probably the best defensive point guard of the 1990s. However, he is several years past his prime and he's only chasing a ring at this point.
I agree. and Gary Payton was the one of the best defensive perimeter players of all time.
GP will be absolutely HOFer.
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Old 01-22-06, 02:59 PM
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GP was great PG in our eague ad should be in the HOF.

The guy played great ad if you are just watching him the last couplde years you really missed out on one of the best PG of the last 20 years.
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Old 01-22-06, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
Payton's 96 Sonics was probably the best team I've ever seen that didn't win a title. They were 64-18 and would destroy at least 3/4 of the teams that ended up winning titles IMO. They took a 72 win Bulls team to 6 from down 3-0, which has to count for something.

Gary Payton
Shawn Kemp
Sam Perkins
Hersey Hawkins
Detlef Shrempf
Frank Brickowski
Ervin Johnson
Coach: George Karl

That was a freaking stacked team.
THAT TEAM was damn good, and for quite a few years. Kemp was a nightmare at that time, a freak of nature who could jump out of the building. Hawkins was a very good shooter, Shrempf was a sharpshooter as well, Payton was the GLOVE THEN, damn good team, Big Smooth could shoot the ball well too from the trey line (Perkins), that team had talent.
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You could let it pick your brain for weeks and months, just replay it over and over, won't do you any good at all. When someone loses a loved one and they do that it only brings forth anguish. I feel acceptance is sometimes the key, it happened, now you have to react to it. Giving up is not an option.
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Old 01-22-06, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rzarector7
THAT TEAM was damn good, and for quite a few years. Kemp was a nightmare at that time, a freak of nature who could jump out of the building. Hawkins was a very good shooter, Shrempf was a sharpshooter as well, Payton was the GLOVE THEN, damn good team, Big Smooth could shoot the ball well too from the trey line (Perkins), that team had talent.
And nate mcmillan, another defensive stopper off the bench.
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