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Old 08-17-05, 09:29 PM
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Nine new additions to 50 greatest? (blog)

Here's a nice little read if you're bored and have nothing to do. I found it fun to read.

http://www.nbasource.blogspot.com/


By Paul Benedict

It was a little over nine years ago that the NBA elected a committee of former players, coaches, managers, executives, and media members to help select the league's 50 greatest players of all time. I'm not exactly sure how the NBA plans on expanding this list in the future (my guess is they add 25 players for the league's 75th anniversary), but I thought it would be interesting to surmise which 9 players would be elected to the team if a committee were to convene today. Of course I could wait until next June when the league actually marks its 60th anniversary (June 6, 1946 was when the original NBA charter was signed), but this is a ******* blog and that allows us to throw relevance out the window whenever the hell we please. Before we reach the 9 new additions, let's briefly take a look at the next 9 players who didn't make the '59' cut, but still stand a chance of landing on the '75' team.


SG Ray Allen - The NBA's premier shooter for the last decade was the last member chosen for this list. Allen still has more to prove if he wants to imprint his name on a Hall of Fame plaque, let alone a list of the NBA's greatest players.


SF Grant Hill - Would have been a mortal lock for this team had he avoided the ankle injuries that have plagued his career. 7 All-Star appearances, 5 All-NBA elections, and career numbers of 20.8 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 5.7 APG still warrant him due consideration.


C Bob Lanier - Considered by many to be a snub off the original '50 at 50' team. The 1992 Hall of Fame inductee only once led a team past the Conference Semifinals, but averaged a 20 and 10 for his career, made 8 All-Star rosters, and has always been deemed as one of the toughest and most profound men ever to grace a basketball court.


PF Bob McAdoo - In many circles, you'll hear McAdoo's name come up first when discussing the NBA's most underrated player of all time. The 6-9 PF won 2 championship rings with the Lakers in the 80's, but enjoyed his greatest years in the 70's with Buffalo and New York in which he posted averages of 25 and 12 in five consecutive seasons, including the league's MVP Award in 1975 after averaging 34 and 14.


SG Reggie Miller - He was never considered a marquee player (only 3 All-NBA teams, all 3rd team), but Reggie consistently remained one of the league's deadliest scoring threats and arguably its most clutch player-- for 18 seasons. It also doesn't hurt that he holds the record for most 3-pointers made (by a lot), ranks 7th all time in FT%, and 15th in career scoring.


C Alonzo Mourning - 'Zo' came around in the thick of the NBA's 'Big Man Era', but that didn't prevent him from being selected to 7 All-Star games and reaping in 2 Defensive Player of the Year Awards. Mourning's career took a tragic turn for the worse when he was diagnosed with a kidney disorder in 2001 and he's been forced to miss a lot of time thus limiting his production since. Nevertheless, he's still a safe bet to become enshrined in Springfield even if his career accolades might not qualify him as one of the 59 greatest.


F Dirk Nowitzki - Although he still has his fair share of work cut out for him before he can be safely mentioned among the NBA's greatest, the 7-foot sharpshooter from Germany has firmly entrenched himself as one of the league's top players in the new millenium. Dirk has been elected All-NBA in each of the last 5 seasons and has finished in the top ten in scoring and rebounding 3 times ('02, '03, '05). Now at just 27 and coming off his strongest season ever in which he set career-highs in scoring, assists, and blocks, I think it's safe to say the best is yet to come.


G David Thompson - Perhaps the 'Skywalker' doesn't warrant mentioning in this column since he only played 5 productive seasons in the NBA. Harrowed by emotional and drug problems throughout his professional career, Thompson partied his way out of the L in 1984. Regardless, any basketball afficiando will tell you that Thompson is one of the 10 most talented players ever to set foot on a court. The fact that he was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1996 despite all of his troubles should tell you just that.


F Chris Webber - There's never been another player whose stellar career has been as overshadowed for its shortcomings than that of Chris Webber's. You can knock on him for being soft, you can rip him for not stepping up during the clutch, and you can tear him apart for his supposed lack of desire to be a champion, but you can't change the facts that distinguish all that he's accomplished-- career averages of 21.8 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.5 SPG, 1.6 BPG; a Rookie of the Year Award; 5 All-NBA selections; and a long-term relationship with Tyra Banks.



The 9 New Additions

SG Kobe Bryant
Career Stats:
9 Seasons: 22.4 PPG, 45.2 FG%, 83.1 FT%, 5.1 RPG, 4.4 APG, 1.5 SPG
Career Highlights:
-Won Slam Dunk Contest and participated in Rookie Game in 1997
-2nd Team All-Rookie in 1997-Became youngest All-Star ever in 1998
-7 Time All-Star ('98, '00-'05)
-2002 All-Star Game MVP
-Finished in the top 6 in scoring in each of the last 5 seasons
-3 Time All Defensive 1st Team (2 Time 2nd Team)
-Named to All-NBA Team each of the last 7 seasons (1st team '02-'04)
-3 Time NBA Champion with the Lakers ('00-'02)
-Last season was the first time he ever missed the Playoffs
The Lowdown:
Bryant is the NBA's the premier 2 guard and arguably the league's most gifted player. Critics can come down on him all they want for his recent off-the-court troubles and for pushing Shaq out of LA, but the fact remains that Kobe already has 5 All-Defensive Team selections, 7 All-NBA selections, and 3 Championship rings-- at the tender age of 26. Chances are, the best is still yet to come.


PF Tim Duncan
Career Stats:
8 Seasons: 22.5 PPG, 50.7 FG%, 12.2 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.5 BPG
Career Highlights:
-1998 All-Rookie 1st Team
-1998 Rookie of the Year
-6 Time All-Defensive 1st Team
-All-Star in every single season he's been in the NBA
-Co-MVP of All-Star Game in 2000
-1st Team All-NBA in every single season he's been in the NBA
-Two-time Regular Season Most Valuable Player (2001-02 and 2002-03)
-Has reached at least the Conference Semifinals in each season he's played except in 2000 when he missed the Playoffs due to a knee injury
-Member of Team USA in 1999, 2003, 2004
-Three-time NBA Finals MVP ('99, '03, '05)
-Three-time NBA Champion
The Lowdown:
It's hard to top what Tim Duncan has accomplished thus far in his career. In fact, only Larry Bird and Bill Russell can claim to have won 2 regular season MVP Awards and 3 NBA Championships before their 30th birthdays. And only 4 other players-- Bird, George Mikan, Bob Pettit, and Oscar Robertson, have been named 1st Team All-NBA in each of their first 8 seasons in the league. And with a selfless attitude and approach to the game that has him only concerned with adding to his growing collection of rings, you can expect TD to build on his already esteemed NBA legacy.



F Kevin Garnett
Career Stats:
10 Years: 20.2 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.7 BPG, 49.o FG%
Career Highlights:
-2nd Team All-Rookie in 1995-96
-Gold Medalist at 2000 Olympic Games
-4 Time All-Interview Team
-8 Time NBA All-Star
-MVP of 2003 All-Star Game
-6 Time All-Defensive
- 7 Time All-NBA
-2003-04 NBA MVP
-Led Minnesota to the playoffs 8 straight seasons ('97-04), but only once beyond the 1st Round (2004 Western Conference Finals)
The Lowdown:
KG introduced a new breed of player to the NBA--the do-it-all 7-footer--something the NBA had never imagined possible until Garnett started nailing 20-footers, running half-court offenses, guarding players of all sizes, etc. And to top it off, the talent he brings to the floor, the consistency with which he plays, and the desire he has to win have all arguably been the best in the league for the past decade. KG would easily crack the list of the NBA's 59 greatest players.


G Allen Iverson
Career Stats:
9 Seasons: 27.4 PPG, 41.8 FG%, 6.0 APG, 2.4 SPG
Career Highlights:
-MVP of 1997 Rookie Game
-1997 Rookie of the Year
-Eastern Conference All-Star Starter in each of last 6 seasons
-MVP of 2001 and 2005 All-Star Game
- 3 Time 1st Team All NBA ('99, '01, '05)
-3 Time NBA Steals/Game Leader ('01, '02, '03)
-4 Time Scoring Champ
-2001 Regular Season MVP
-Led 76ers to Playoffs in 6 of last 7 seasons including NBA Finals appearance in 2001
- Co-Captain of 2004 Bronze Medal USA Olympic Team
The Lowdown:
A.I. is one of a kind-- what he lacks in size and strength, he makes up for in mind-boggling quickness, extraordinary toughness, and a genuine passion for the game that you rarely find in players. Although he's already ensured his own plaque in Springfield and a place among the best ever to play, Iverson's career won't ever seem complete until he's wearing that ring. And because of what he's accomplished both on and off the court, there's no player out there that fans want to see win a championship more than A.I.


PG Jason Kidd
Career Stats:
11 Years: 14.8 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 9.3 APG, 2.1 SPG
Career Highlights:
-1994-95 Co-Rookie of the Year
-NBA leader in assists 5 times
-Selected to 7 All Star Games, 4 as a starter
-Gold Medalist at 2000 Olympics
-Named to All-NBA 1st team 5 times; All-Defensive 1st Team 3 times
-Led Nets to 2 straight NBA Finals Appearances
The Lowdown:
The quintissential point guard of this generation. Kidd will undoubtedly go down as one of the 5 greatest floor generals of all time and be elected into the Hall of Fame on his very first ballot. With his creativity and playground-style of basketball from the point guard position, J-Kidd has bridged the gap between two generations of basketball, and most importantly, kept the pass-first point guard from going extinct. J-Kidd has been the best point guard of his generation.


G/F Tracy McGrady
Career Stats:
8 Seasons: 22.0 PPG, 44.4 FG%, 6.4 RPG, 4.3 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.1 BPG
Career Highlights:
-Participated in 1998 Rookie Game
-Named NBA's Most Improved Player in 2001
-Named to the All-Star Team in each of the last 5 seasons
-Named to an All-NBA Team in each of the last 5 seasons (1st Team in '02, '03)
-Led NBA in scoring twice ('03, '04)
-Scored 99 points in back-to-back Playoff games at Detroit in 2003
The Lowdown:
McGrady has proven himself as arguably the NBA's most dynamic athlete and its most prolific scorer, yet there remain questions abound concerning his attitude and willingness to become the kind of leader that refuses to let his team get pushed out of the 1st Round of the Playoffs yet again. T-Mac showed signs of maturity in his first season with the Rockets this past year, but it's going to require more than just "signs" if he is going to imprint his name among the NBA's all time greatest when all is said and done. Of course he's only 26 years old, so there's still plenty of time.


PG Gary Payton
Career Stats:
15 Seasons: 17.6 PPG, 46.9 FG%, 4.1 RPG, 7.2 APG, 2.0 SPG
Career Highlights:
-1991 All-Rookie 2nd Team
-Selected to All-Star Team 9 times
-1996 Defensive Player of the Year
-9 time All Defensive 1st Team
-9 time All NBA (1st Team in '98 and '00)
-Has missed just 12 games in his entire career
-Reached the NBA Finals with the Sonics in '96 and Lakers in '04
-Member of Gold Medal-winning 1996 and 2000 U.S. Men's Olympic Teams
The Lowdown:
'The Glove' might not have been the flashiest of players during his prime, but if you were looking for a player that could give you consistency, durability, and leadership from the point guard position, then GP was your man. What else more can you ask from your floor general than for him to score 20+ points, distribute the ball exceptionally, play some stifling defense, and be the vocal leader of your squad...every single night out?
Gary Payton-- the consummate point guard.


F Dennis Rodman
Career Stats:
14 Seasons: 7.3 PPG, 52.1 FG%, 13.1 RPG, 4.8 ORPG
Career Highlights:
- 2 time NBA All-Star
-8 time All-Defensive Team (7 time 1st Team)
-2 time All-NBA 3rd Team
-2 time Defensive Player of the Year
-Led NBA in rebounding 7 straight seasons ('92-'98)
-5 time NBA Champion ('89, 90 with Detroit; '96-96 with Chicago)
The Lowdown:
You know what? I don't care that he didn't come close to averaging double-digit points for his career. There's a lot more to basketball than putting the ball through the hoop and Dennis Rodman defines that notion better than any other player in the history of the NBA. At least in my book, you just can't leave off the best hustle player of all time, arguably the greatest rebounder ever, the stingiest defenders of his time, and a 5 time World Champion.


SF Dominique Wilkins
Career Stats:
15 Seasons: 24.8 PPG, 46.1 FG%, 81.1 FT%, 7.5 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.4 SPG, 0.7 BPG
Career Highlights:
-1983 All-Rookie Team
-9 time NBA All-Star
-7 time All-NBA
-2 time Slam Dunk Contest Winner
-Finished in the top 5 in scoring 5 times
The Lowdown:
First he gets left off the original 'Dream Team'; then he fails to make the cut as one of the NBA's 50 Greatest; and this year, most shockingly of all, he is not voted into the Basketball Hall of Fame in the first year he becomes elgible. Allow me to be blunt-- what the ****?! 'The Human Highlight Film' has somehow been overlooked his entire career, but because he happened to be simulataneously redefining the way basketball is played in the NBA at the same time someone named Michael Jordan was as well, he spent his entire career overshadowed by his airness. Don't kid yourself-- 'Nique is easily one of the 59 greatest ever.
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Old 08-17-05, 09:35 PM
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Personally, I'd take T-Mac off and put Reggie on there. But otherwise, it's a good list.
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Old 08-17-05, 10:16 PM
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manu is next
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Old 08-17-05, 10:27 PM
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The next 10 members of the All Time NBA Team (60th Anniversary) should be:

Dominique Wilkins
Reggie Miller
Gary Payton
Bob Lanier
Jason Kidd
Alonzo Mourning
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan

Last edited by RichB; 08-18-05 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 08-17-05, 10:43 PM
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I'm always on the fence about Nique.
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Old 08-17-05, 11:28 PM
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Grant Hill and Chris Webber, yes Chris Webber, over Tracy McGrady. Thats a hearty list I can agree with though.
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Old 08-17-05, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Deity
Grant Hill and Chris Webber, yes Chris Webber, over Tracy McGrady. Thats a hearty list I can agree with though.
C-Webb, are you serious? No way for me.
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Old 08-18-05, 12:21 AM
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All Stars that don't make my cut

Chris Webber - Has done less with more talent than any player since Derrick Coleman. Classic underachiever.

Tracy McGrady - Still a work in progress, although has had a fine career so far. Needs to return to his defensive prowess of his early years and prove he's more than just a scorer.

Dirk Nowitski - In his prime and his career will be judged by what he does without Nash and Finley.

Ray Allen - The Dave Bing of his generation? Terrific shooter, questionable leader.

Vince Carter - Rightfully compared to Dominique Wilkins, but perhaps not as talented. Athletic wonder - but questionable heart.

Paul Pierce - Terrific talent, but labeled selfish and difficult. Yet to return Celtics to prominence.

LeBron James - Barring serious injury is a lock to make the 75th Anniversary team and if he has the kind of MVP season many are expecting, he could pull a Shaq and make 60th List just three years into his career.

Dwayne Wade - In just 2 seasons, has shown he's a phenomenal talent and ripped to lead the Heat to the Finals. Still a few years away from All Time Great status.

Amare Stoudamire - Amazing ability and athleticism at power forward could vault this kid into the Malone/Duncan arguement before he ends his career. Still has a way to go.

Steve Nash - Excluding his 'MVP Season' - Nash has had a solid if uneventful career. Needs at least two or three repeat seasons and perhaps lead the Suns to the Finals before he's done. On the wrong side of 30, that's a tall order.
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Old 08-18-05, 12:46 AM
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I'd say wait until the 75th anniversary......I see some great players being mentioned, but few who I'd consider to be the greatest ever, just yet.

Kind of feels like......giving Russell Crowe a Lifetime Achievement Academy Award. You know.....he is a great actor, but a Lifetime Achievement award, isn't it a little premature?

No question, deserve to be on the list:
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan

On the cusp: Great players....but were/are they the GREATEST?
Dominique Wilkins-
Reggie Miller
Jason Kidd
Bob Lanier

These guys were great.....but it just feels like we might be adding them on just to reach a nice even 60.

Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Allen Iverson
Kevin Garnett-Name 10 power forwards who've won more rings, please.
Tracy McGrady-Didn't he admit he slacked off?
Dennis Rodman-One dimensional player

Sorry, I just put a lot of these players up against the Dream team and the original 50, and I perceive a drop off. The Greatest 60, ought to be more selective, and harder to get into, than the HOF.

Last edited by To be named later; 08-18-05 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 08-18-05, 01:04 AM
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Dominique should have been in the first 50, Especially in favor of Dave DeBusschere.
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Old 08-18-05, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurs 2-0, Rockets 2-2, Jazz 0-2
Dominique should have been in the first 50, Especially in favor of Dave DeBusschere.
What do you have against Dave DeBusschere?

8 Time All Star,6 time All Defensive 1st Team, 2 NBA Championships and a 1983 Fall of Fame Induction.

I agree about Dominique Wilkins, but not at the expense of DeBusschere.

I've always felt that perhaps Wilkins should have been named instead of Dave Bing. Both players were primarily scorers who played on mediocre/bad teams. Wilkins numbers were superior however.
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Old 08-18-05, 01:29 AM
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Out of the dream team, 50 best and HOF... that's crazy.

'Nique deserved to be on that selections. I mean, while in his prime, the Hawks ware near the top on standings (with fierce division and conference competition), the visits to Atlanta ware very unconfortable to any team and they played in the playoffs every year.

What can Kobe do on his own?
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Old 08-18-05, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
What do you have against Dave DeBusschere?
Nothing - I just think Dominique is a better player, and that DeBusschere is one of the weaker selections at the forward spots. (I know they didn't select by position)

As for Bing, I get you. It wouldn't kill me if he was removed. It just seems that if you're going to have Gervin and Bing on that list, Dominique should be there too.

Walton was a bad choice too - he was brilliant when healthy. So why isn't Maurice Stokes on that 50 greatest list? He played as many complete or near complete seasons as Walton.
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Old 08-18-05, 02:03 AM
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Because Chris Webber has actually done some things in his basketball career. He's a leader. Tracy McGrady is just a proven scorer. Grant Hill actually should'nt be in either but he's a better choice than McGrady.

Anyone from the class of 2001 and beyond shouldn't be included yet.

SG Kobe Bryant
PF Tim Duncan
F Kevin Garnett
G Allen Iverson
PG Jason Kidd
PG Gary Payton
F Dennis Rodman
SF Dominique Wilkins
PF Chris Webber OR F/G Grant Hill

I can't see any reason to change that list.
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Old 08-18-05, 02:49 AM
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Chris Webber is no leader. He's a puss.

Always has been.

He wants to be recognized as THE man, he wants to get paid as THE man - but he doesn't want the responsibility that comes with BEING the man.

Even when he was 100% healthy - he was a classic underachiever. B!tched and moaned his way out of Golden State, controversy and losing followed him in Washington,initially rejected the idea of Sacramento and flirted with the idea of being a Knick, came up lame against the Lakers and had to be bailed out by Bibby, etc, etc - always seemed to have his mind on something OTHER than winning.

He's a gimpy, jump shooting, powerless forward.

I'm sorry, but this guy is terribly overrated.
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Old 08-18-05, 03:27 AM
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I agree with you TBNL...I think it's too early to add people considering only Kobe and Duncan REALLY deserve to be on the list.

Sometimes it's scary to think how good Duncan is and will be, by the end of his career.

...and I agree with RichB; Chris Webber has done nothing worth while in his career that puts him ahead of any great basketball player in the NBA. Other than some All-Star games...where's the rings, where's the MVPs....where's anything that says he is one of the greatest to play in the NBA?
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Old 08-18-05, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason R
I'm always on the fence about Nique.
And so are a lot of people who vote on these kind of awards. I personally feel he should be on it, should have been on it the first time, but he got left out, and Rodman's glaring off court problems and personality will be a major stumbling block for many of these people whose vote counts in these matters. It was a good read and ineresting to see some of the bios and stats of some of these great players.
Anybody got the original 50 list?
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Old 08-18-05, 10:14 AM
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http://www.nba.com/history/players/50greatest.html

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nate Archibald
Paul Arizin
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Dave Bing
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Cousy
Dave Cowens
Billy Cunningham
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Hal Greer
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
Magic Johnson
Sam Jones
Michael Jordan
Jerry Lucas
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Kevin McHale
George Mikan
Earl Monroe
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Robert Parish
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Jerry West
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy
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Old 08-18-05, 10:22 AM
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IMO, at least 10-15 players on that list are not better than Dominique. His omission is ridiculous.
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Old 08-18-05, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud786
SG Kobe Bryant
The Lowdown: Bryant is the NBA's the premier 2 guard and arguably the league's most gifted player. Critics can come down on him all they want for his recent off-the-court troubles and for pushing Shaq out of LA, but the fact remains that Kobe already has 5 All-Defensive Team selections, 7 All-NBA selections, and 3 Championship rings-- at the tender age of 26. Chances are, the best is still yet to come.
I love this!!!!
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Old 08-18-05, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkman
IMO, at least 10-15 players on that list are not better than Dominique. His omission is ridiculous.
I can probably agree with 2 or 3, but 10-15???? Wow.

For all his amazing ability, Wilkins is seen as someone who did not take his game to another level - as was the case with so many of these players.

His lack of playoff success hurts him, probably more than anything. Wilkins never even played in a Conference Finals - let alone lead Atlanta to an NBA Finals or a championship. He never even got close.

His infamous duel with Larry Bird was actually in Game 7 of the 88 Eastern Conference Semi-Finals. Many seem to think it was the ECF because the game was so memorable.

I think the way he ended his career hurt him as well. Going to play for a big contract in Europe when he could have ended his career in the NBA on a contender (who remembers the Nique to NY story?) and tried to win that elusive NBA Title, but he chased the money.

He returned in '96 with the Spurs and was part of that miserable 20-62 season. BUt instead of coming back to reap the benefits of a healthy Robinson and a rookie Duncan - he bailed for more money - to Europe.

I think Dominique Wilkins was percieved by some people as someone who cared about his stats and his paycheck only.

Dominique has a solid case to be on the Top 50, but over 10-15 others?? I don't buy that.

We discussed Dominique Wilkins career a few months ago. Here:

http://www.spursreport.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27852 (How good was Dominique Wilkins?)
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Old 08-18-05, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkman
IMO, at least 10-15 players on that list are not better than Dominique.
Yes, but I'm guessing many in that 10-15 number are players like Dolph Schayes and Paul Arizin - players who were stars in the league's infancy. Players who helped build the league. For that reason alone, I wouldn't remove them from the list.
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Old 08-18-05, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB
I can probably agree with 2 or 3, but 10-15???? Wow.

For all his amazing ability, Wilkins is seen as someone who did not take his game to another level - as was the case with so many of these players.

His lack of playoff success hurts him, probably more than anything. Wilkins never even played in a Conference Finals - let alone lead Atlanta to an NBA Finals or a championship. He never even got close.

His infamous duel with Larry Bird was actually in Game 7 of the 88 Eastern Conference Semi-Finals. Many seem to think it was the ECF because the game was so memorable.

I think the way he ended his career hurt him as well. Going to play for a big contract in Europe when he could have ended his career in the NBA on a contender (who remembers the Nique to NY story?) and tried to win that elusive NBA Title, but he chased the money.

He returned in '96 with the Spurs and was part of that miserable 20-62 season. BUt instead of coming back to reap the benefits of a healthy Robinson and a rookie Duncan - he bailed for more money - to Europe.

I think Dominique Wilkins was percieved by some people as someone who cared about his stats and his paycheck only.

Dominique has a solid case to be on the Top 50, but over 10-15 others?? I don't buy that.
If JJ manages to make of the Hawks what they ware when 'Nique played for them, I will consider him an all time great too.

Dominique was very old in '96. He put 18.2 ppg (1.2014 points per shot) and 6.4 rpg numbers for a swingman of 37 (thirty seven) years. He was sopoused to be a bench player that year, not a guy to go without help.

Ware great players like Pete Maravich, Dave DeBusschere, Sam Jones, Earl Monroe, James Worthy, Nate Archibald, Dave Bing, Billy Cunningham, Nate Thurmond, etc. really better than Wilkins?

It wasnt an easy task for Wilkins or Jordan to succed against the Celtics and the Pistons. MJ later played at the orders of Phil Jackson, and with players like Pippen and Horace Grant he managed to reach the finals, but it wasnt easy.

Last edited by dunkman; 08-18-05 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 08-18-05, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkman
Are great players like Pete Maravich, Dave DeBusschere, Sam Jones, Earl Monroe, James Whorty, Nate Archibald, Dave Bing, Billy Cunningham, Nate Thurmond, etc. really better than Wilkins?
With the exception of perhaps only Dave Bing and maybe Billy Cunningham - yes, they were all better than Wilkins.
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Old 08-18-05, 01:09 PM
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Being Wilkins comparable to Jordan...

Hmm...

Sure, Jordan played much better defense, and had better control of the ball and was more motivated. Also he was inmensely succesful later in his career.

But Wilkins was quicker and bigger, and slightly stronger.

He was always jumping with both legs, givin him truly sick speed, height and power in the air. He would hide the ball moving it with wild speed in the air, and he would left no time for reactions. Jordan was more finnese than power aproaching the hoop, contortioning his body in the air. Really an artist...

Besides, both had a respectable jump shots.
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Old 08-18-05, 01:19 PM
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For all their athletic gifts - you really have to judge a player by the total package.

Ability, basketball smarts and heart.

Wilkins excelled at only one of these consistently. The truly great ones have all three.

Jordan had all three in spades.
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Old 08-18-05, 03:57 PM
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grant hill Should get in.

mcgrady??? ehhhh! not quiet yet .

glad to see mr rodman gettin some bball credit, for his better days
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Old 08-18-05, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
With the exception of perhaps only Dave Bing and maybe Billy Cunningham - yes, they were all better than Wilkins.
Worthy wasn't. Not even close.
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  #29  
Old 08-18-05, 04:47 PM
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Nique was awesome. He averaged 25 and 7.4 boards for a career. It wasn't until he was a Spur in his last season I realized what an excellent rebounder he was.

Who was the best player on those Hawks teams besides him? Kevin Willis? Doc Rivers? Tree Rollins? And they still had some unbelievable shootouts with the Celtics.

Because of Dominique.
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Old 08-18-05, 05:44 PM
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In the famous shootout, one can see Bird comming out of various screens to take a shot with open look and 'Nique receiving the ball being guarded and scoring on whoever player(s) the Celtics put on him. Of course it's not that Bird couldn't score one on one on anyone or that needed much space, but it seems that coaching wasnt the same.

As in the case when Jordan made 63 points to the Celtics and lost the game anyway, in the shootout Dominique made more points than Bird.

And well, it's not a shame to lose in seven games against the great Celtics, by 2 points, in game 7 playing in Boston.

In 1988 the Celtics fought a bitter seven game battle with the Pistons. The Pistons, that previously downed the Chicago Bulls in convincing fashion, survived the series. The Pistons then went to fight seven games with the Lakers in the finals. They gave the Lakers fits, but Isiah suffered an ugly injury...

Last edited by dunkman; 08-18-05 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 08-18-05, 05:56 PM
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Glad to see Rodman on that list. One of the best defensive players of all time. Without a doubt the most versatile. Could guard any player on the court. Though some people can't get over/around his personality, he did make his teams better. Why? Because he made a career of doing the dirty work that most players don't want to do. His teams won. I would love for TD to have a hard working sidekick like that to make his job easier.
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Old 08-18-05, 06:14 PM
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Nique had great scoring averages, but so did Mitch Richmond...Nique will always be highly regarded because of his insane hops and ability to score at will, but I gotta agree with Rich.

Unfortunately, greatness is achieved through team and individual success. The Hawks sucked..they still suck. They're the Clippers of the East...they have had some talent in the past, but they never really went after it all. It's good to see them going after JJ, but they probably helped destroy Nique's chance at greatness by never giving him some help.

Don't compare Nique and Jordan...It's like the comparisons to MJ and Clyde...Although they all have hops and game, Jordan always made his team a lot better and put them over the threshold. Sure MJ had Pippen, but we all know who carried those teams when the game needed a playmaker.
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Old 08-18-05, 06:41 PM
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Richmond career was short and his stats ware lower. Drexler averaged 20 ppg during his career.
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  #34  
Old 08-18-05, 07:24 PM
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TMac in no way, shape, or form deserves to be on that list. You can score all the points you want, but you gotta get your team OUT of the first round, especially now that he has an allstar center playing alongside him. He can't keep choking when he needs to step up.
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  #35  
Old 08-18-05, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkman
IMO, at least 10-15 players on that list are not better than Dominique. His omission is ridiculous.
Name them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaboard
Worthy wasn't. Not even close.
Dominique was more gifted athletically but Worthy had a more complete all-around game and always took his game up a notch in the playoffs.

Last edited by maldoror; 08-18-05 at 11:22 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-18-05, 11:22 PM
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AS long as TD is added I'm happy
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  #37  
Old 08-18-05, 11:37 PM
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Mitch Richmond. The Rock.

I forgot all about him.

Consistent as hell. Great scorer and solid defensive guard.

Michael Jordan said more than once that Richmond reminded him of himself in his committment to conditioning and to playing the game at both ends of the court.

Richmond averaged over 20 PPG for 10 consecutive seasons. In his 11th season, he dipped to 19.7PPG.

Career scoring average for 14 seasons was 21.0PPG.

Richmond was a 6 Time NBA All Star, 5 Time All NBA, 1989 NBA Rookie of the Year, 1995 All Star MVP and won an Olympic Gold Medal in 1996. Very nice NBA career played out in virtual obscurity in Sacramento.

His numbers compare favorably to players already on the Top 50 list ( his scoring numbers were actually better than Clyde Drexler) and like players such as Maravich and Bing - had to endure years of mediocre teammates and carry his share of bad teams.

I'm not saying he absolutely belongs on the Top 60 List - but I think he's got a solid case.

Last edited by RichB; 08-18-05 at 11:40 PM.
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  #38  
Old 08-19-05, 12:15 AM
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I would add Dennis Rodman. If Unseld makes it, so does the "Worm."
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Old 08-19-05, 12:34 AM
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Unseld was a ROY and MVP in the same season. Only the second player to ever accomplish that.

He was a 5 time All Star and also 1978 Finals MVP. Rodman never came close to any of those things.

His numbers don't jump out at you, but they were certainly superior to Rodman.

At 6'7, this undersized center waged war with some of the greats including Jabbar, Chamberlain, Reed, Cowens and Lanier - and more than held his own.

His numbers don't compare to some of the other great centers, but Unseld was a tough, durable, lunch pail type of player - and certainly one of the great centers of his era.
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Old 08-19-05, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
Chris Webber is no leader. He's a puss.

Always has been.

He wants to be recognized as THE man, he wants to get paid as THE man - but he doesn't want the responsibility that comes with BEING the man.

Even when he was 100% healthy - he was a classic underachiever. B!tched and moaned his way out of Golden State, controversy and losing followed him in Washington,initially rejected the idea of Sacramento and flirted with the idea of being a Knick, came up lame against the Lakers and had to be bailed out by Bibby, etc, etc - always seemed to have his mind on something OTHER than winning.

He's a gimpy, jump shooting, powerless forward.

I'm sorry, but this guy is terribly overrated.
I'm just saying he belongs over Tracy McGrady who has accomplished nothing besides popularity. Chris Webber while he failed, has actually put up great numbers, taken his team to the playoffs. He's far from Hall of Fame or anything like that but hell he's better than some of the choices brought.

Mitch Richmond wasn't a better player than Webber he was just an awesome scorer, much like McGrady, that stayed on a losing team all his career before finally sneaking in with the Lakers to win a title.
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Old 08-19-05, 01:27 AM
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I think Richmond was a far more complete player than Webber was, although it's hard to compare them because they played different positions.

Richmond has my respect for sticking it out in Sacramento for so long, when he could have easily b!tched and moaned about trades every year. He stuck it out with a bad, bad team and eventually got traded to an equally mediocre team in Washington (ironically enough - for Chris Webber). He was always a classy individual who played the game with dignity.

Something we can't exactly say about Chris Webber.
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Old 08-19-05, 01:32 AM
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in their primes, would you trade Worthy straight up for Wilkins?
Not if you were heading up a team that won championships....

They were both great players. Dominique would definitely give you more highlights, but Worthy was way more solid and consistent.
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Old 08-19-05, 02:09 AM
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But as basketball players Webber is far better than Richmond. Richmond did not have the PG skills to play PG and was sometimes undersized for 2 guard. He did score and scored well. Thats his high point. He stuck it out on a bad team, on a bad team that he was leading though.

Webber put up better numbers and has gotten more accomplished. The Kings of Webbers era are obviously better than Richmond's Kings but those Kings were better because of Webber.

If you take in personalities and their actions then there are a couple of other players that need to be excluded from this list.
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Old 08-19-05, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Deity
But as basketball players Webber is far better than Richmond. Richmond did not have the PG skills to play PG and was sometimes undersized for 2 guard. He did score and scored well. Thats his high point. He stuck it out on a bad team, on a bad team that he was leading though.

Webber put up better numbers and has gotten more accomplished. The Kings of Webbers era are obviously better than Richmond's Kings but those Kings were better because of Webber.
I have to disagree. On two points.

Richmond was a solid 6'5, 215.lbs SG that could bull his way to the basket with his strength or post up game. He had exceptional size for a SG in his day and battled the great Michael Jordan so tough he earned his Airness respect. Jordan routinely praised Richmond and his game.

Second of all: Webbers Kings were not better because of him, but they were better because they had more talent.

The best Kings team Richmond was on: 1996 Kings went 39-43 and made the playoffs as the 8th seed. That season, 4 teams won 50 or more games and the Kings made the playoffs almost by default. The Western Conference wasn't nearly as strong as it has been the last 7 years, and the Kings still only made the playoffs once during the Richmond era. Why?

Aside from Richmond, his 3 most productive teammates in 1996:
Walt Williams (14.6PPG;4.6RPG)
Brian Grant (14.4PPG;7.0RPG)
Olden Polynice (12.2PPG;9.4RPG)

None of the 96 Kings were All Stars, past, present or future. Richmond was the sole All Star on a team full of journeymen and decent players. The talent there was so bad that in his best season they won 39 games and barely made the playoffs.

The best Kings team Webber was on:2002 Kings went 61-21 and secured the best record in the NBA. That season, 5 teams won 50 or more games - and the 8th seeded Jazz actually won 44 games. The Kings, Lakers, Spurs and Mavs all won 55 or more games, so it was a dominant conference. The Kings advanced to the WCF where they lost in a Game 7 OT classic to the Lakers. How?

Aside from Webber, his 3 most productive teammates in 2002:
Peja Stojakovic (21.2PPG;5.3RPG)
Mike Bibby (13.7PPG;5.0APG)
Doug Christie (12.0PPG;4.6RPG)

Stojakovic was already an All Star by this time and he and Bibby carried much of the offensive load when Webber faltered. Bobby Jackson and a rookie Hedo Turkoglu hit big shots as well as being paced by the veteran Vlade Divac.

Webbers Kings won because they had depth and talent, not because he was some elite player or great leader.

Webber has great teammates and great skill - he lacked great heart.

Richmond had great heart and great talent - he lacked great teammates.

Last edited by RichB; 08-19-05 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 08-19-05, 07:48 AM
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Its a joke to compare Wilkins to MJ, say he doesn't measure up, and then use that as the reason he isn't a top 50 player.
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Old 08-19-05, 12:32 PM
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My point is that MJ was better, but their game was more similar than with any other player in recent history. If most think, as they do, of MJ as the best ever, then why is so difficult to imagine that 'Nique deserved to be a top 50 player.

I dont imagine Worthy, as good as he was, beeing any succesfull without Magic or Kareem. When he won the finals MVP he said that the award should had gonne to Magic.

The situation here should be clear to anyone who saw them play... but one could check the numbers too:

'Nique was 9 times all-star. While competing with a player like Bird he was All-NBA First Team (1986); All-NBA Second Team (1987, '88, '91, '93); All-NBA Third Team (1989, '94).

Worthy was 7 times all-star, but he only made the All-NBA Third Team two times (1990 and 1991).

Worthy, having the luxury to play with Magic, was better only in 1990 - in a sense that he made the All-NBA third team, and Wilkins wasnt All-NBA that year. Even so, he wasnt better by much that year, because Wilkins made the all-star team in 1990.

While playing better in playoffs his stats ware still way inferior to Dominiques. He had high FG%, it's true, but his misses ware not as much due to fouls like in the case of Wilkins, who shot more FT's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocat
in their primes, would you trade Worthy straight up for Wilkins?
Not if you were heading up a team that won championships....

They were both great players. Dominique would definitely give you more highlights, but Worthy was way more solid and consistent.
That trade would be a no brainer. Few players in the NBA history ware so consistent scorerers like Dominique. And Worthy wasnt one of them. Actually, with those Magic assists, he would compete much better in highlights.

I think that the NBA (probably because he left to play in Europe while in his prime) or the Hawks organization (bittered by their miserably failure, they didn't gave him the required support for HOF) had some deal with Dominique, and he didn't received his well deserved recognitions.

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Name them.
I named some previously.
>>> Link (Nine new additions to 50 greatest? (blog))
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  #47  
Old 08-19-05, 02:56 PM
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He isn't a great leader but he was their best player hands down. He made Bibby better, he made Jason Williams better, he set up Peja. Before he destroyed his leg against Dallas he was a complete big man. Pass, rebound, shoot. Yes his teammates were more talented than Richmond's but he was a huge part of those Kings teams' sucess. On a side note players like Bibby, Peja, Hedo Turkoglu, Jim Jackson all choked like he did.

Had Richmond taken his team somewhere or accomplished anything other than consistant scoring I would agree but he didn't.
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Old 08-19-05, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Nique had great scoring averages, but so did Mitch Richmond...Nique will always be highly regarded because of his insane hops and ability to score at will, but I gotta agree with Rich.

Unfortunately, greatness is achieved through team and individual success.
Then why are Gervin and Maravich on the 50 greatest list and not Dominique?
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Old 08-19-05, 07:02 PM
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I always thought the list was retarded. Bill Walton is on the list but they question Grant Hill because of injury.

Bill Walton never has been and never will be deserving of that list.

Duncan is already in the top 10 of that list he has done things that only Russell and Bird can lay claim to.
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Old 08-19-05, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Corleone
I always thought the list was retarded. Bill Walton is on the list but they question Grant Hill because of injury.
Grant Hill was never close to being a league MVP or the best player on a championship team. Once you achive those two things you get talked about as an all-time great.
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