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  #1  
Old 07-04-05, 11:32 PM
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Horry to visit Heat; Mavs enter the bidding?

KSAT12 News is reporting that Miami has taken a back seat in the Robert Horry sweepstakes to the Dallas Mavericks.

Marc Cuban and Avery Johnson are reportedly intersted in adding Horry as a "clutch shooter" and according to KSAT, would be willing to throw most of their MLE toward Horry.

Miami obviously wouldn't be able to do that, since they have pressing needs of their own. Although according to KSAT Robert Horry will visit with the Heat next weekend.

I don't know if this is the wisest move for Dallas, who could use their MLE to make more important additions to their roster.

So, if the bidding comes down to the Heat and the Spurs, I like our chances of keeping him. If Cuban throws the entire MLE at Horry, would the Spurs match?

I realize Spurs have Horry's EBR, but would they really push up their total salary number by giving him a salary equal to the MLE? I don't think so.

Thoughts?

Last edited by RichB; 07-04-05 at 11:40 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-04-05, 11:34 PM
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Not worried really if the spurs give him a fair offer he will be back.

I'm guessing Miami isn't really making a push at him now and he is pretty much out of his plans so he is using Dallas for some leverage.
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  #3  
Old 07-04-05, 11:37 PM
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Horry can't play in a team without a dominant big man,
and can only play for a championship contending team, no way he could go in _allas
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  #4  
Old 07-04-05, 11:43 PM
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Dirk is not a dominant big man? I guess I agree with that. Double teaming on the perimeter where Dirk plays spreads the floor less than a player being doubled in the paint.
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  #5  
Old 07-04-05, 11:48 PM
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Dirk does not command the respect of a Olajuwon, O'Neal or Duncan.
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  #6  
Old 07-04-05, 11:56 PM
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If Cuban wants a player, he's crazy enough to throw money at him despite more pressing needs on his roster.

The Heat need to focus on getting a point guard since Damon Jones went to free agency.

I think Horry wouldn't hesitate to pick the Spurs over the Mavs anyways.
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  #7  
Old 07-05-05, 12:22 AM
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My question was why KSAT keeps on asking if the Spurs are willing to use their MLE on Horry. As far as I understood, we don't have to dip into the MLE to resign him right?? So we could theoretically spend the MLE, or part of it, on Scola and then resign Horry for however much we're willing to spend right?
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  #8  
Old 07-05-05, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesR
Spurs have EBR on Horry and Brown.
True, but would Holt and co be willing to pay Horry that amount (MLE) even with exceptions?

Would you overpay the guy just to keep him??
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  #9  
Old 07-05-05, 12:30 AM
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This leads me to believe that the Spurs will not throw big money Robert's way. I have long asserted that the Spurs FIRST priority is bringing in Scola- Pop even said so last summer.

No one has been able to definitely verify for me that when the Spurs declined Robert's option last summer that they still held onto his Bird Rights. Are we sure?
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  #10  
Old 07-05-05, 12:33 AM
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All i can say is Spurs would not have 3 championships in 7 years if it weren't for Horry, so spending a little more than the min, is fair.
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  #11  
Old 07-05-05, 12:37 AM
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we need a capologist. that, and someone to explain to me what is and what is not a foul. then, i could perhaps enjoy the game some. ebr's, mle's, starting to sound like f*'ing baseball.
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  #12  
Old 07-05-05, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timm
we need a capologist. that, and someone to explain to me what is and what is not a foul. then, i could perhaps enjoy the game some. ebr's, mle's, starting to sound like f*'ing baseball.
ERB - Early Bird Rights: Allow the current team to sign a player even if they are over the cap and also makes the player a restricted free agent, allowing the current team to match an offer from another team.

MLE - Mid Level Exception: the standard pay, if you want to think of it in some form for a player who's not on a rookie contract.
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  #13  
Old 07-05-05, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grego
MLE - Mid Level Exception: the standard pay, if you want to think of it in some form for a player who's not on a rookie contract.
Also, MLE is for team's over the cap and they are allowed to spend that amount (4 or 5 million I think) despite being over the cap.
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  #14  
Old 07-05-05, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLadiesMike
Also, MLE is for team's over the cap and they are allowed to spend that amount (4 or 5 million I think) despite being over the cap.
I believe its 4 something this coming season. Thanks for adding the extra info.
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  #15  
Old 07-05-05, 12:47 AM
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Mavs are not a Horry away from a championship, so it wouldn't be a good move for them. Still, should they go for it, i don't think MLE kind of money is a fair price... i think Horry's contributions have been incredible, don't get me wrong, but... i hope this is all bull$hit, because it would really suck.
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  #16  
Old 07-05-05, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesR
Oh no. I'm just saying that if the Spurs really want to keep the guy, the ball is in their court.

I don't think the Spurs NEED Horry. Thats the same kneejerk reaction that people have toward S-Jax.
THe Spurs dont need anyone except Tim D, but as these finals showed us Robert Horry is no fluke as some people here might insinuate. That being said I dont see why Horry would go to dallas even if Cuban threw the whole mid-level exception at him. How is horry going to fit into that scheme? Neither Dirk nor Daimper have post up games that merit a double team. Plus Horry could not stand in Dallas as a 4 because they've no one at 5 to pick up the slack. He would have to play in the pack of 2-3's that DAllas has and, as the rotations at the end of the season dictated, they were giving daniels and van horn big minutes to play the three. Aren't both of these guys going to be around for Dallas?

Horry is no fool to play with those losers in dallas.
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Last edited by Zarasthrsa; 07-05-05 at 12:52 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-05-05, 12:58 AM
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Offensively he's dominant in a sense, but has only begun to scrathch at the fact that defense and interior toughness define big players.
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  #18  
Old 07-05-05, 01:02 AM
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OK- I have read info all over the internet and I can not find one source that says we have Horry's Early Bird Rights? Can someone find me any link that supports this? I have found several sites with lots of free agents- which are restricted, Bird Rights, etc... and none have this designaton for Horry.


Quote:
EARLY BIRD EXCEPTION -- This is a weaker form of the Larry Bird exception. Players who qualify for this exception are called "Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. A player qualifies for this exception after just two seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent. Using this exception, a team may re-sign its own free agent for 175% of his salary the previous season or the average player salary, whichever is greater (see question number 22 for the definition of "average salary"). Early Bird contracts must be for at least two seasons (which limits this exception's usefulness -- it's often better to take a lower salary for one more season and then have the full Bird exception available the next season) and no longer than six seasons. A player can receive 12.5% raises using this exception.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

Interesting to note that if you use the Early Bird, you have to give the guy at LEAST 2 years in his contract.

I am still perplexed as to whether we "renounced" Horry last summer to make room to sign the guys we did. Otherwise, he would have counted greatly against the cap based upon his previous year's salary of about $5M. And if we renounced him, do we still retain these rights. He wasn't actually waived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grego
ERB - Early Bird Rights: Allow the current team to sign a player even if they are over the cap and also makes the player a restricted free agent, allowing the current team to match an offer from another team.
Again- I have not found any source that says the current team has matching rights on an Early Bird player- only how much they can pay him.
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  #19  
Old 07-05-05, 01:05 AM
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Typical Mavs......not addressing their needs, like defense, and going out and getting flashy big name guys.

At least they have sense to try to get a guy with six rings.
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  #20  
Old 07-05-05, 01:06 AM
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IMO, Spurs are probably willing to match MLE money for Horry per year. What Dallas may be willing to do (and SA wouldn't) is offer him a longer term deal. I can't see the Spurs offering anything longer than a 3 year deal (and that is pushing it). If Dallas really wants Horry bad enough, they might be willing to offer him a 4 or even a 5 year deal. I don't think that the move would put Dallas over the top----or even out of the second round, but Spurs would miss Horry on the court come next May and June.
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  #21  
Old 07-05-05, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by To be named later
At least they have sense to try to get a guy with six rings.
if only character would pass through osmosis...
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  #22  
Old 07-05-05, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ennui30
Dirk is not a dominant big man? I guess I agree with that. Double teaming on the perimeter where Dirk plays spreads the floor less than a player being doubled in the paint.
dirk didn't do Sh!t in the playoffs, he's been exposed. instead of putting a PF on him you put a big SF like mcgrady and since he has less post moves then nazr and lacks the quickness to get around a guy like mcgrady he can't score.
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  #23  
Old 07-05-05, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drcantgetright
IMO, Spurs are probably willing to match MLE money for Horry per year. What Dallas may be willing to do (and SA wouldn't) is offer him a longer term deal. I can't see the Spurs offering anything longer than a 3 year deal (and that is pushing it). If Dallas really wants Horry bad enough, they might be willing to offer him a 4 or even a 5 year deal. I don't think that the move would put Dallas over the top----or even out of the second round, but Spurs would miss Horry on the court come next May and June.
You're making the assumption that Horry would want a deal of that length. The problem is that Robert said he wants to play for 2 more years and then retire, the length of the contract isn't a part of this debate.
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  #24  
Old 07-05-05, 01:57 AM
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you can't replace Rob Horry's clutchness and savvy play so easily - for those under-estimating his value .. we as spurs fans found out last year and many years before 03 and 99 that tough play-off performers are hard to come by.. Horry should be the Spurs number one priority this offseason... hope Pop/RC comes out and confirms it.
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  #25  
Old 07-05-05, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDS4
If Cuban wants a player, he's crazy enough to throw money at him despite more pressing needs on his roster.

The Heat need to focus on getting a point guard since Damon Jones went to free agency.

I think Horry wouldn't hesitate to pick the Spurs over the Mavs anyways.
Right now the most pressing need for Cuban is to overtake San Antonio as the best team in Texas. If he can do it by getting stronger and making San Antonio weaker he will.

I think it steams his butt that the best team in Texas and the NBA is San Antonio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DULESfreestyler
you can't replace Rob Horry's clutchness and savvy play so easily - for those under-estimating his value .. we as spurs fans found out last year and many years before 03 and 99 that tough play-off performers are hard to come by.. Horry should be the Spurs number one priority this offseason... hope Pop/RC comes out and confirms it.
The key isn't that you replace his clutch play, the key is that you improve enough that you don't need his clutch play.
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  #26  
Old 07-05-05, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Corleone
The key isn't that you replace his clutch play, the key is that you improve enough that you don't need his clutch play.
i think if horry does leave, which i don't think he will, Donyell Marshall could fill his shoes nicely even though he doesn't have 6 rings, Marshall can do all the things horry can do.
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  #27  
Old 07-05-05, 03:02 AM
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Yes. Horry was actually very valuable to our team. Not just his clutch shots but also all the little things he did. I actually thought Hubie's description of Horry as Mr. intangible was more than appropriate...but brilliant. That's what he was as I saw him play.

In that same sense, Horry can be valuable to your team anywhere he goes. Especailly in Dallas where some young and inexperienced guys can benefit from the vet's wisdom.

But at the same time, horry's contribution is not really going to put them over the top unless Horry can play for them like 4-5 years which I don't think Horry wants as he mentioned he would only like to play for 2 more years. I think he is serious since Horry does not look like a guy who would like to play till 40 for some more money or something. That laid-back attitude is also another reason to lead me to believe why he would not push more than he has to. And Mavs don't need someone who can't put them over the top.

Another, the way Horry plays needs a team that plays team D. Otherwise, his little things on D wouldn't be much of a help for other players and he would not get much help from other players as well.

Plus. Dallas has too many outside shooters and not much inside presence. And they don't really have a player who can demand the double team.

The problem with Dallas as I watched the playoff series, they have a lot of talents but they don't play team ball offensively and defensively. I don't know if it is because they are all too talented or poor coaching. But they just do things too one-on-one.

And the Mavs owner....probably it is his influence I guess to recruit players. They have to have guys to compliment each other. They just can't throw money around to bring all very talented guys or shooters/scorers. They have to have some kind of identity in the team and build role players around the core players. They just keep changing and just brining shooters/scorers all the time like Van Horn last time.

With Spurs, I was sometimes kind of sick of hearing of D all the time from Pop. At times, it seemed like maybe too much emphasis on D is kind of making players too cautious to get fluent motion on offense and soemthing like that. Too tight...I mean sometiems. Especially 2 years ago vs Nets and last year vs Lakers. They could not make open jump shots.

This year..yes their offense got really better. I was optimistic about Final series because they kept making outside shots consistently throught playoff series for the majority of time. But the importance of D was also very evident as I saw vs suns and vs pistons.

After the loss in game 3 and 4, people kept saying about our offense. Our score total was low so that looked obvious. But I also thought their low turnover rate had something to do with our D pressure against their D pressure. It is hard to score against their D. But we also were not making stops. Honestly, game 4 was a big big fluke, I thought. Miraculously, their shots, even very poor percentage shots, were all going in. But because of that, we got discouraged big time. So, that is why we were not playing well. So, when I heard Pop talk about D before game 7, I was glad. It is our identity. We sometimes have to forget about the previous play when they make a poor percentage/ difficult shot and keep having relentless pressure on D and go from there, like we did against suns.

Sorry...I am babbling here. So, the point is Mavs just don't have the identity.

I thought Pop was really brilliant when he talked about Suns in early season. Teams who know who they are, they are going to do well. I am very impressed with Pop.

I don't know if Horry would like to go for more money for his last years in the league. Mavs, if they are interested, they will certainly throw the money. If they throw all MLE, Spurs certainly will not match that. But it is also not a guarantee that Spurs will win the championship(s) next two years. Spurs sould have a better chance than Mavs. But you never know. Heat also has a good chance I think with Shaq and Wade. But it is as much as or more of a risk to go to Heat than staying in Spurs when you pursue championship.

Horry is a very savvy and smart guy. I think the championship is his ultimate motivator even though he has 2 rings already. Spurs will certainly offer the reasonable amount. Horry knows what his role is in this team and he knows what Pop expects from him and what he expects from Pop. If you go to another team at this point, who knows what his role is going to be? Mavs certainly will bench him all day if he does not shoot 3. With Heat coach, you have to have a lot of time to gain his trust. I think for Stan, it takes a lot of time really as we saw with Zo.
But with Spurs....Game 5 vs Pistons. Horry really sucked big time the first 3 quarters. Everybody was saying that. And people outside the Spurs were surprised that Pop kept Horry on the floor in 4th quarter. And after the game, they praised Pop that he was brilliant doing so. Pop didn't know Horry was going to be that big. But Pop knew what Horry can bring to the table and he trusts Horry. We even brought him back this year AGAIN after he sucked big time against Lakers last year. Everybody was saying "dump Horry!!!".

Horry maybe is testing the water to see if he can get some more from Spurs. But if he is smart, he should stay with Spurs. He will be happier here than anywhere else he goes.
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  #28  
Old 07-05-05, 03:26 AM
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Horry would only listen to TD or Shaq, he only would be interested in playing for a contender team who has a higher chance of winning it all.

Horry doesn't want the longer deals as miss was saying, he did say he wants to play two more years then go to scouting and coaching.

I doubt Mavs would interest him enough to change his mind and sign with them.

His first saying when he signed with the Spurs two years ago that the Spurs are not a bad team, and that he is happy to play with top teams.

I think Horry mentinoed in the post parade interview that we have a great nucleous here in San Antonio to repeat , and that is exactly what he wants to have the best chance of winning it all, he knows TD is the man, Shaq is the closest second...Dirk is NOT even close...I love Dirk and he is a great player but he is no where near TD and Shaq, Sorry....
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  #29  
Old 07-05-05, 04:21 AM
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Horry is a winner and the Allas Mavs are losers. Figure it out. Horry replacing a 3 time world champion for a Pretty boy chump who called out players who performed better then him this postseason and has never won a damn thing???Man thats funny
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  #30  
Old 07-05-05, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Corleone
The key isn't that you replace his clutch play, the key is that you improve enough that you don't need his clutch play.
But you can't predict when you need players to step up in important situations. You need guys who can play when the pressure is great. Spurs don't have 3 rings in 7 years without Horry. Even MJ's Bulls needed some big shots from time to time.

He makes big plays whether they be shots or rebounds or taking a charge or a steal or a pass.
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  #31  
Old 07-05-05, 05:34 AM
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I reckon Horry's got the rings, now it's all about the money. Buh-bye, Mr Clutch.
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  #32  
Old 07-05-05, 05:41 AM
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Big Shot Rob will stay in San Antonio to defend the title and because he loves the city of San Antonio as he get's his privacy here unlike other big market teams.

Plus all the other major factors like Duncan, Manu, Pops and the organization from top down.
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  #33  
Old 07-05-05, 06:03 AM
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it would be a sad day for me if Big shot Rob is not spur next season
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  #34  
Old 07-05-05, 09:36 AM
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Cuban wants a clutch shooter? What ...to get a clutch shot that might get them out of the first round? You have to get to the finals first in order to make clutch shots in the finals.
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  #35  
Old 07-05-05, 09:42 AM
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At this point I don't think it is about the money for Robert Horry. He will stay in San Antonio even if we can only pay him the Veteran's minimum. It is the spirit of San Antonio as a team that allowed us to keep Tim Duncan when teams were throwing big number offers at him. We signed Manu for far less than what he would have gotten from Denver for instance, or any other team that needed a gutsy player. Dallas really needs a "system" and not necessarily another shooter. Dirk can be clutch if the Mavericks system actually worked with the type of players they have. Oh yeah and Mark Cuban needs to stop making stupid comments about his team and get a good GM in there to really help him build it. He just throws money at his problems and he thinks that we will solve them.
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  #36  
Old 07-05-05, 09:52 AM
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^^^Never believe that it's not about the money. As much as we'd love to believe that all our Spurs would play here for peanuts that's not the case. The Spurs need to make a fair offer and if Cuban's going to get in the bidding then that means the Spurs will probably have to up their offer as well.
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  #37  
Old 07-05-05, 09:57 AM
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The Mavs already have 13 players under contract for the upcoming season so all they have left to spend is their MLE and LLE for two spots. It is a definite possibility that they will offer all of the MLE to Horry. But would Horry really go to Dallas for a slightly larger contract and an early exit from the playoffs. Horry would be a great addition to any team but the Mavs need much more than what Horry can give them to compete in the playoffs. Hopefully the Spurs will give Horry a fair contract basically in part paying him for his play last season and for how he will pull step it up in the playoffs for the next couple of years. By having the early bird rights we are able to offer fair market value for Horry (approx. 2 yrs/ 6mil), sign Scola and another decent FA with the MLE.
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  #38  
Old 07-05-05, 10:01 AM
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Its always about the money.
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  #39  
Old 07-05-05, 10:07 AM
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Im really not worried about Horry leaving SA. he WANTS to stay here according to his own words. He said last week he EXPECTS to re-sign here and has told his agent to get that done according to reports.

With SA having Early bird rights...they are in a good spot

SA will most certainly offer him a fair deal. Pop said last week Horry deserves "Special consideration" from the Spurs this summer

That should tell you right there they plan on doing a lot to keep this guy

I know RichB was just reporting what he heard but I wonder if there is any other source on this besides KSAT? They have proven on several occasions to be worthless when it comes to insider news. I didnt see this on other stations or sources

I find it hard to believe even Dallas would spend MOST of the MLE on Horry when they have OTHER needs on the team. Even Avery isnt that stupid
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  #40  
Old 07-05-05, 10:17 AM
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If he went to any other team he will play a lot more minutes than if he stayed with the Spurs. I'm sure that has to play in his decision at some point.
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  #41  
Old 07-05-05, 10:20 AM
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Don't forget, when Horry first came over from L.A. the Spurs gave him a 2 year 10 million dollar contract, which pretty much is the entire MLE.
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  #42  
Old 07-05-05, 10:23 AM
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I'm not worried about losing Horry because the Spurs will step up and do what they need to do in order to keep him. That being said I am mildly concerned about what might happens in terms of signing other players if the Spurs end up having to spend more on Horry than they had originally planned. Lost in all the salary cap talk is that Holt probably has his own ideas on where he wants the Spurs salary to be and that in itself is another "cap" that could affect player signings.
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  #43  
Old 07-05-05, 10:23 AM
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Help me gang, I can't remember how much the Spurs can match (up to what amount?) on the early Bird rights.
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  #44  
Old 07-05-05, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
That being said I am mildly concerned about what might happens in terms of signing other players if the Spurs end up having to spend more on Horry than they had originally planned.
They still would have the entire MLE, LLE, and bird rights for Devin. With Pops "special consideration" comment. I think SA has obviously planned to have to spend a little more to keep him
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  #45  
Old 07-05-05, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Help me gang, I can't remember how much the Spurs can match (up to what amount?) on the early Bird rights.
on early bird you can match up to an amount equal to the MLE, i.e. theoretically the Spurs and Mavs can offer Horry the same amount of money.
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  #46  
Old 07-05-05, 10:38 AM
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Pop and RC probably told Horry to go visit some teams to see what they are offering him. Horry's agent is probably sending him out to visit these teams to figure out what his market value is. Which I'm sure is more than the leaque minimum. Then they can have some numbers to talk about.
If they aren't too high and won't put the Spurs in a big hole I'm sure Horry will be back.
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  #47  
Old 07-05-05, 10:54 AM
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I agree Horry is a big piece of this team with his intangibles and clutch shooting but all these posts about 3 titles in 7 years I don't understand. He only helped win one.
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  #48  
Old 07-05-05, 11:07 AM
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Well it all depends how much Scola is willing to take.....and the buyout is a whole different monster.
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  #49  
Old 07-05-05, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Corleone
Right now the most pressing need for Cuban is to overtake San Antonio as the best team in Texas. If he can do it by getting stronger and making San Antonio weaker he will.

I think it steams his butt that the best team in Texas and the NBA is San Antonio.



The key isn't that you replace his clutch play, the key is that you improve enough that you don't need his clutch play.
my point was you can't replace a player such as Horry so easily.. he's a proven play-off performer.. the kind of player that has earnt the respect of opposition players and coaches, around the league... as some-one else expressed Horry gives us intangibles that helps win games.. you all forgetting how important his reputation, experience and production is for the likes of Duncan and Manu in having room to operate... it's silly to think that can be glossed over with talent... basketball in the play-offs simply doesn't work that way... even POP stated this year, you need guys that can step up when it matters.... last year we didn't have it.. before 03 we didn't have it .. if you think Scola will make up for a Horry , then you all in for a rude awakening.
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  #50  
Old 07-05-05, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGVSpursFan#1
Pop and RC probably told Horry to go visit some teams to see what they are offering him. Horry's agent is probably sending him out to visit these teams to figure out what his market value is. Which I'm sure is more than the leaque minimum. Then they can have some numbers to talk about.
If they aren't too high and won't put the Spurs in a big hole I'm sure Horry will be back.
At this stage in his career, though, Horry shouldn't have to go visit anyone. He knows these guys; he's been to these cities for years. He didn't even come visit SA before he decided to sign here- only came long enough to get a physical. Brent, Rasho- none of them visited.
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