ESPN Radio: Legler calls Duncan #2 PF all time, behind Malone

[FleaFlicker]

[Mateobv05]

[FleaFlicker]

His argument was that Tim hasn't had to face the Bulls Dynasty.

I've got a lot of work to get done, so I can't really afford to rant about the Dynasty Bulls, but several people here already know how I feel about the Dynasty Bulls being completely jocked and overrated in retrospect. I think either these Pistons or Spurs could beat Jordan's Bulls in their prime in a 7 game series.

Anyways, Malone is still ringless

[Mateobv05]

What does he say when the Spurs are a "dynasty", That Tim couldn't face himself?

[pjjrfan]

One man's opinion, but what does it matter, Tim is on the verge of true greatness, surronded by an incredibly talented cast, this team will only get better. If he truly is no. 2 behind Malone, that won't last long.

[PhillyDoc]

Legler 10,000 th greatest guard in NBA all time.

Legler probably 500th plus as analyst.

No Worries

[twentyone]

Originally Posted by FleaFlicker

Anyways, Malone is still ringless

Why rant when that's ALL you have to say? You are exactly right. You can be great ---- but you can't be the BEST without one.

bah, gettin all choked up again after seein Timmy get the MVP last night. Legler jumped on a sinking ship, hope he wore his floaties.

[mehtaam]

lets not forget that legler has been a spurs fan since day 1

[spurs99]

Tim Legler last nite was defending the Spurs saying it was harder to win 3 NBA titles over 7 years than Lakers winning a 3Peat ....and Greg Anthony was defending the Lakers 3peat.......darn I thought they were going to have it out...

[Spur2TheMax]

Originally Posted by mehtaam

lets not forget that legler has been a spurs fan since day 1

I don't agree w/that. He was very critical of the Spurs the last few years, especially when they went up against LA.

TD = 1 - no competition
Malone = 2

But him being 2nd to Malone at this point is not a huge insult.

[mehtaam]

i do not think that it is completely inconceivable that the spurs could win 3 more rings....i know thats its very unlikely, but wouldnt that be amazing if duncan and jordan got the same number of rings...and kobe got sent to the nbdl cuz thats the only place he can win a championship, and shaq had to be fork-lifted to and from games b/c he got too fat (although i am a fan of what shaq does in terms of community service).

Oh one more thing...What do you call a hot girl in detroit??????

A TOURIST!!!!

GO SPURS GO!!!!!!!!!
LET THE DYNASTY BEGIN!!!!!!!!

[Cruzzer]

How come Malone's Jazz couldn't beat the Rockets? Why couldn't they get to the nba finals through Phoenix? If Jordan's Bulls weren't there, they would have only had a chance to win 2, not 3.

[ProjectGSX]

Originally Posted by FleaFlicker

His argument was that Tim hasn't had to face the Bulls Dynasty.

Just wait a few more years, when the Spurs reach the level of dynasty the Bulls had. Then there will be no more discussion.

[adp spurs]

Originally Posted by spurs99

Tim Legler last nite was defending the Spurs saying it was harder to win 3 NBA titles over 7 years than Lakers winning a 3Peat ....and Greg Anthony was defending the Lakers 3peat.......darn I thought they were going to have it out...

Saw that segment again this morning. Legler seems to be really rubbing Greg's face in it. Greg is looking like a complete moron. I'm glad Legler was there or ESPN would probably be showing highlights from the kobe-shaq la 3-peat.

[Dave McNulla]

i disagree with legler, but he has the right to have an opinion even if it's wrong. he can make a case for malone being #1, but it doesn't convince me. jordan didn't have to face a defense like the spurs. it could very well be that the spurs would eat their lunches.

[Len]

I don't think anyone should get too upset about this. It is still debatable. Didn't anyone see the quote from David Robinson?

"I'm so proud of him because he just really solidified himself as one of the top couple of power forwards ever."

[George]

ok i dont get it...
i know tim was getting dogged cuz he had a bad series to his standards. but in the end he came through once again.
malone had 2 chances and blew them.

Duncan is #1

[ronald_perez]

I think that Tim Legler's statement has some credibilty. Malone was a damn good power forward. Not sure where he stands on the all-time scoring lists but I believe he is second. That is some accomplishment. Plus his teams were always in th playoffs.

[BUTD]

Well see Malone didn't just play during the Bulls Dynasty. He came into the league in 1986. Also Stockton was with him forever so the Jazz had 2 great players all those years. Malone had plenty of oppurtunity to win he just couldn't do it. Duncan has already won three in his first 8 seasons.

[FleaFlicker]

Originally Posted by BUTD

Well see Malone didn't just play during the Bulls Dynasty. He came into the league in 1986. Also Stockton was with him forever so the Jazz had 2 great players all those years. Malone had plenty of oppurtunity to win he just couldn't do it. Duncan has already won three in his first 8 seasons.

Exactly. Tim duncan took over the biggest game on the biggest stage against a BETTER defensive team than the dynasty bulls.

[Grego]

Doesn't matter if that's true now. Duncan still has time to finish up his resume. Malone's is done.

[skydawg]

Originally Posted by JamesR

No shame in being #2 to Malone. Malone was a great player, and Tim is only in his 8th season.

that's the funny thing--malone number two all time in ponts scored and played in a better era than duncan..you can make the case that he was better. then again you can make the case the other way around.

duncan still has problems with rasheed wallace and garnett...malone plyed at a high level for a very long time.

duncan has a prettier game, and more rings, but played on a better team.

I think when you get to the top five players at a position then it gets really fuzzy.

[magnificent]

Originally Posted by FleaFlicker

His argument was that Tim hasn't had to face the Bulls Dynasty.

I've got a lot of work to get done, so I can't really afford to rant about the Dynasty Bulls, but several people here already know how I feel about the Dynasty Bulls being completely jocked and overrated in retrospect. I think either these Pistons or Spurs could beat Jordan's Bulls in their prime in a 7 game series.

Anyways, Malone is still ringless

you gotta be kiddin me pal. the bulls set records. 72-10 is the greatest win percentage in the history of the NBA; along with a world title to top off the season. to say the pistons or spurs could beat the bulls in their prime is just rediculous. but im not taking away from tim duncan; he's definately as great as karl malone.

[kidd_91]

Originally Posted by Dave McNulla

i disagree with legler, but he has the right to have an opinion even if it's wrong. he can make a case for malone being #1, but it doesn't convince me. jordan didn't have to face a defense like the spurs. it could very well be that the spurs would eat their lunches.

Not to change the topic, but the Jordan teams played great defense and while it's true the Spurs defense may have slowed them, they would have also slowed us. Plus Rodman/Pippen would have harassed Timmy into tough games. Rodman played great in your head defense, he did all the little physical things that seem to get to Tim.

[skydawg]

Originally Posted by FleaFlicker

Exactly. Tim duncan took over the biggest game on the biggest stage against a BETTER defensive team than the dynasty bulls.

yeah-but ginobli had just as great of a game.

however, malone couldn't ice his.

see it can be real fuzzy with the criteria.

[magnificent]

you gotta be kiddin me. the spurs are a great defensive team, BUT the bulls had 3 players that earned all defense 1st team in the 95-96 season. have the pistons or spurs done this?

[Falcone]

What matters in the is end ring count: Timmy 3, Malone 0

[ElNonoMasa]

Timmy is still young, and can improve into what his legacy will be. Malone just can't improve his situation. Looking into the future, and if Timmy carries this team through a few more times, there will be absolutely no discussion on who's the best PF ever.

[TodTango]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/3653506

Why Duncan is the NBA's best forward ever
Elliott Kalb / Special to FOXSports.com
Posted: 2 days ago

I wanted to rush to judgment after the 1998 NBA season, but of course, it was way too early.

It was too early following the 1999 season, when Tim Duncan won his first NBA championship.
It was premature even after the 2003 season, one in which Duncan won the MVP and his second NBA title.

But I'm not sure that I'm not jumping the gun now, with Duncan one win away from his third championship.

Tim Duncan is the greatest forward of all time.

When my book, Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball? was published in the fall of 2003, the most difficult ranking concerned the Duncan. The last revision I made was to jump Duncan over Bob Pettit and Karl Malone into the top 10 players of all time.


It was difficult to put Duncan (after only six seasons) ahead of the Mailman, but now, it is time. And it's also time to acknowledge Duncan as the greatest forward of all time, edging past Larry Bird.

Bird won three MVP awards (consecutively, in his fifth, sixth, and seventh seasons.)

Duncan has won two MVP awards (consecutively, in his fifth and sixth seasons).

Bird not only won those three MVPs, but he was in the top three in voting in each of his first eight seasons.

Duncan has played eight seasons in the NBA, and has never finished lower than fifth.

Bird won three NBA championships.

Duncan has won two NBA championships, and is on the verge of his third.

Bird was first team All-NBA for nine consecutive seasons, beginning in 1980.

Duncan was first team All-NBA for eight consecutive seasons, beginning in 1998.

In his first eight seasons, Bird's teams were 20-5 in playoff series, losing twice to powerhouse Lakers teams.

In his first eight seasons, Duncan's teams are 16-4 in playoff series, losing three times to powerhouse Lakers teams.

And Duncan's humility is unquestioned.

"He's amazingly unaffected," said longtime hoops writer Peter Vecsey. "Of all the superstars in the history of the game, he's the No. 1 teammate in terms of ability, personality, quality of person, work ethic, likeability ... he's No. 1. Not even close."

In every season that Duncan plays, his team rates among the top teams in defensive rankings for fewest points allowed and opponent field-goal percentage.

Duncan is always on the first or second all-defensive teams. Now, Bird was one of the greatest free-throw shooters of all time. I'm sure he never had playoff games where he missed 9 out of 12 free throws, as Duncan has done. And Bird was a better passer, who often led his team in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

Bird did most of his damage in the first eight years of his career. Duncan — especially if he wins his third NBA title this season — has virtually matched him.

Duncan has shown some vulnerability to injuries the last two seasons, and his career has probably peaked.

However, if the Spurs win the NBA championship, it is my contention that Duncan should be considered the greatest forward of all time. Either way, it is a wonderful debate: The perfect Celtic, against the man (Duncan) who was favored to be a Celtic, until the ping-pong balls went the wrong way for Boston.

There are only four other men on the planet who deserve to be in the same solar system as Bird and Duncan.

Their names are Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone, Bob Pettit, and Julius Erving.

And all that said, here is my ranking of the NBA's greatest forwards:


1. Duncan
Almost from his first week in camp, he was the best player on the Spurs. He's won a title with David Robinson playing Robin to his Batman. He's won a title with Tony Parker playing that role. And he might win this year with Manu Ginobili playing second fiddle.

Duncan missed the 2000 postseason with a torn left lateral meniscus. If he wasn't hurt, the Spurs might have won another title.


2. Bird

Larry Bird and Dr. J., two of the top 10, go head to head. (Jerry Wachter / Getty Images)

In an era of great players, he was first or second in MVP voting for six consecutive seasons. He didn't have the athleticism that many of the other great forwards had. In fact, Bill Walton says that Bird was an unbelievable rebounder who knew where the ball was going before the ball knew. And he "did all this without being able to jump over two pieces of paper."


3. Bob Pettit
It's hard to jump Duncan over Pettit, who played between 1954 and 1965. In that time, Pettit won two MVPs, an NBA championship, and was first team All-NBA 10 times. When he retired, he did so as the league's all-time leading scorer. In other words, he did everything Karl Malone did — and a little more.


4. Elgin Baylor
He put up incredible numbers for the Lakers in the 1960s, until knee injuries caught up to him. He scored 40-plus points in a game 87 times, and only Chamberlain and Jordan bettered that.

"Baylor revolutionized the game, taking a mostly horizontal game and making it diagonal," Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe says. "He brought in all the reverse layups, the double fakes. And he was a great rebounder despite his 6-foot-5 size."


5. Julius Erving
You can't judge him by his 11 NBA seasons. You have to take into account his five ABA seasons, when he was at his best. He probably deferred to teammates too much in his first few NBA seasons, as well.


6. Karl Malone
He had a peak (two MVP awards, sandwiched around a second-place finish in 1998 to Jordan), and a consistent career value which is hard to overlook. He led the Western Conference in scoring seven times, and was second four other seasons. But like Baylor, the Mailman didn't deliver in his championship appearances.


7. Charles Barkley
For five seasons he was a first-team All-NBA pick. For five other years he was a second-team pick. He was MVP in 1993, and deserved it in 1990. He didn't have the talent around him in his peak years, as the six forwards ahead of him had.


8. Rick Barry
He did everything Bird did, but was intensely disliked by many. He carried NBA teams and ABA teams to championships, and like Duncan and Bird, he took a bad team and made them contenders almost immediately.


9. Scottie Pippen
Six NBA titles can't be ignored. They make up for the lack of MVPs, appearances on All-NBA teams, etc. Pippen was a great defender. His teams won 137 playoff games. Oh, by the way. Michael Jordan played five seasons without Pippen as his teammate. He won exactly one playoff game (compiling a 1-9 postseason record) without him. Scottie, on the other hand, was 13-17 in the postseason without Jordan, and came within a furious rally by the Lakers of leading the Blazers into the NBA Finals.


10. A toss-up
This is the toughest choice of all. Dolph Schayes was the best player in the league in the mid-50s. John Havlicek won eight NBA championships, and was the Celtics' leading scorer in four of those seasons. He was a great big-game player, as well. Dennis Rodman was the greatest defensive forward of all time. And Kevin Garnett has done everything but lead his team into the NBA Finals.

I'll choose Schayes. Why? Late NBA writer and historian Leonard Koppett told me that Schayes was even better than Bob Pettit.

And in this case, I'll defer to Koppett.


Elliott Kalb is the author of the new book, "Who's Better, Who's Best in Baseball?" (Available at Amazon.com or his website www.elliottkalb.com.)

[dark21horse]

Timmy = 8 seasons, 3 rings
Karly = 18 seasons, 0 rings

I would say that Karly is the Best Power Forward never to have won a ring, but that's all you're gonna get outta me. Here's what I have to say about that Chicago Bulls excuse

[bnwhuxley]

Here's the take from an ardent critic of malone.

http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/a...sen_is_the.php

BrokenCowboy
Why do you say that?

Charley Rosen
Because Malone was a loser. He was always a loser. His defense was highly overrated. He could play stationary defense. He’d give a guy a big bang when he posted up. He had no lateral movement, he never did. He would choke in the clutch all the time. I mean, look what happened against Chicago when he played them. He lost the ballgame for them. Michael stole the ball, and it was the game. It’s interesting, the Bulls played them in two consecutive championship series. They double-teamed Malone maybe three times a game. Their philosophy was, “this guy is a choker, he’s not gonna beat us.” And they played, I think a total of twelve games, was it? He beat ‘em in two games. Superstars are supposed to do more than that. The best power forward in the history of the NBA is supposed to win more than one out of six games. He never understood the triangle, he never went with the triangle, never committed himself to the triangle, and he’s a bull**** guy also. You know he’s a family man and everything, it’s all bull****. It’s all bull****. Read the book I did with Darryl Dawkins and find out what Malone really was like.

[FleaFlicker]

Well put by Charley Rosen.

Malone is, in fact, a loser.

[bujji1402]

The greatest PF supposedly, went begging to LA for a ring. Got whipping from Deeetriot. and the same Deetriot lost to Duncan.

There is a team called LA Clippers somewhere in LA, where a player averages 20/10 elton john?.e.h... who may become 10 time all star, but never see playoff action in his lifetime.. Can we call him greatest PF ever?.....

Why did the ironman get so frequently injured last season when Steriods usage became the hot topic.

Timmy is the Hank Aron.. and Mailman is Barry Bonds.. if you got what I meant.

[FleaFlicker]

Karl Malone will always be remembered as the ultimate loser.

[Cryan Yahood]

You can't only use the Bulls dynasty as the excuse for Malone.

He only got to the Finals twice in his career and the Bulls were in the East so that only accounts for 2 years.

In 94 and 95 the Jazz lost to Houston both years, one time with homecourt. They never made the Finals till 97 despite having some really talented teams and a great, great PG.

The league was definitely tougher in the 90's than now so I can see that argument but Malone was his own worst enemy with his propensity to choke in the clutch. They'd have beaten Chicago at least 1 yr if he didn't freeze up in clutch time and hand the ball to MJ and brick FT's down the stretch.

Duncan is definitely better. Malone had better range and better outside shooting touch, but Tim is much better defensively and his game is better suited for the playoffs than Malone's. I don't know about being better than Larry Bird though, that's a pretty big reach.

[FleaFlicker]

The Spurs would sweep the Dynasty Bulls easily.

[bnwhuxley]

JamesR, the 3rd ring and Finals MVP has already sealed it. Tim doesn't have to lift another finger and he's already greater than Malone.

[magnificent]

having a championship ring on your resume says alot about you as a player and also the organization. HOWEVER, i don't think that you can measure how great someone is as opposed to another great player just because how many rings they have. in all fairness, just becuase duncan has 3 rings to malone's 0 doesn't mean he's automatically better. robert horry has 6 rings and reggie miller has none; does that mean horry is better than miller? i don't think so, yet they both still will be remembered for their cluthch 3-point shooting; it's just horry was always at the right place at the right time.

also, look at what malone has done. he's ranked in the top 3 of all time scorers, duncan is not. malone will also go down as one of the best passing if not the best passing big man in the history of the game, duncan won't. malone also extended his game; for example, running the floor, dropping easy 15 footers. duncan is a good defender, but malone was pretty good defensively too. rebounds were automatic from both players as well. now duncan has 3 rings, but he also didn't have to go against the best player in the history of the game.

i don't think it's fair to say duncan is better than malone, yet.
it's all about seizing the moment. the jazz failed to get to the finals after losing to houston during the rockets' championship run, but when the jazz finally made it to the finals they lost to the bulls two years in a row. it's just like when phil came to the lakers the spurs got beat 3 years in a row (sacramento being the only team capable of beating the lakers in their recent 2002 title run), but the only difference was that duncan and crew were still so young and so they kept comming back; eventually you get a series victory if you continue to fight and come back year after year with a healthy core. the jazz were getting too old.

[FleaFlicker]

Malone also had more than twice as much time as Tim in the league.

[Preterist]

Did anyone else hear Barkley on Dan Patrick?

[MenInBlackAreBack]

All the above being said, it's a close race but I STILL put Duncan above Malone on all the time list because in my mind four things separate him from Karl:
1) 3 finals MVP trophies
2) 8 straight all NBA selections (including his rookie season!)
3) rookie of the year trophy
4) his "Larry Bird" stats - which sadly I don't have...does anyone have them? - are incredible (especially during his MVP season)

All of this without the benefit of having great passes from a hall-of-fame caliber point guard every night (such as Karl enjoyed when he played with Stockton). In fact, considering all of the new faces that have surrounded Tim the last few years, I also wonder if Karl could have accomplished the same sparkling results...don't you?

[FleaFlicker]

Plus Tim is 1-0 in Game 7s

[bnwhuxley]

having a championship ring on your resume says alot about you as a player and also the organization. HOWEVER, i don't think that you can measure how great someone is as opposed to another great player just because how many rings they have. in all fairness, just becuase duncan has 3 rings to malone's 0 doesn't mean he's automatically better.

Sure. No problem. The 3 rings, 2 MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs, 8 First Team selections don't necessarily mean Tim is BETTER than Malone, but it surely means he is GREATER than Malone.

also, look at what malone has done. he's ranked in the top 3 of all time scorers, duncan is not.

True. Malone's scoring ability and longevity is spectacular.

malone will also go down as one of the best passing if not the best passing big man in the history of the game, duncan won't.

Err..no. Malone was an excellent passer, but a damn long way from being one of the best passing big men. CWebb, Divac, KG are routinely better.

malone also extended his game; for example, running the floor, dropping easy 15 footers.

Huh? Malone was always running the floor. TD as well. Malone developed a midrange shot, and so did TD. The one thing Malone did well was that by his 4th season he had improved dramatically at the line.

duncan is a good defender, but malone was pretty good defensively too. rebounds were automatic from both players as well.

TD reached the All-Defensive Team 8 times. Malone reached the All-Defensive Team 4 times. For all his power and strength, Malone was never a shotblocking intimidator.

now duncan has 3 rings, but he also didn't have to go against the best player in the history of the game.

Malone went against MJ twice (well, actually he went against Rodman twice). What about all the other years? He didn't even get that far.

i don't think it's fair to say duncan is better than malone, yet.
it's all about seizing the moment. the jazz failed to get to the finals after losing to houston during the rockets' championship run, but when the jazz finally made it to the finals they lost to the bulls two years in a row. it's just like when phil came to the lakers the spurs got beat 3 years in a row (sacramento being the only team capable of beating the lakers in their recent 2002 title run), but the only difference was that duncan and crew were still so young and so they kept comming back; eventually you get a series victory if you continue to fight and come back year after year with a healthy core. the jazz were getting too old.

Don't forget Portland in 2000 came just as close as Sacramento did. Besides, Malone was once young too. It took him 7 years to get to his first WCF, 12 to get to the Finals. His teams lost to a whole bunch of other West teams in the meantime.

I've said this b4, but I'll say it again. Tim stands out amongst all the power fowards of this generation, and this generation is arguably the greatest generation of power forwards in terms of the sheer talent and responsibility placed on guys playing that position.

[FleaFlicker]

Utah was never that great anyways.

[FleaFlicker]

Originally Posted by JamesR

Beat the Spurs asses more than a few times.

What like twice? When we had injuries?

The best team in the West in the 90s was, by far, Houston (1994-1995).

After Houston's reign, SA became the best, only to be stymied by injuries until 1999.

Before Houston it was Portland/Phoenix.

[FleaFlicker]

Originally Posted by JamesR

Tim's first year for one. Some others too, I can't remember.

The fact is though, Malone's Jazz were a damn good team. Not champion good, but damn good. If not for Malone's choking, they WOULD be champions over MJ's Bulls. Tim ALMOST had that stigma become a part of his legacy, but he didn't let it happen, which is why Tim will be known as better than Malone in the future. The media won't flat out say it until Tim gets up there in age. Malone was great for a looooong time.

Malone was great at bumping, fouling and never getting called for it. This is another reason why I don't think the Dynasty Bulls were all that great. If that mediocre Jazz team put them on the ropes (what, like two 6-game serieses?) then The Dream's Rockets deflate his Airness and so do the 1999 Spurs for that matter.

Karl Malone should stick to eating rogaine.

[FleaFlicker]

Spurs beat the Pistons even with 3 extra men on the court for them.

I think even T'Shaun Prince can agree that 04 Pistons >>> 03 Spurs is simply not the case.

Steven Jackson strikes fear in the hearts of all Pistons fans. Sometimes he just cuts out the middle man and strikes the fans personally.

[tmtcsc]

What the Spurs did over the last 7 years is quite remarkable. Tim and Pop were the only 2 people left from the 1999 Championship team. That's amazing. Tim, Manu, Tony, Bruce and Pop + coaching staff were the only ones left from 2003. Who else has done that ??

I guess I could do some homework, but that seems very unsual to have 3 Championships in so few years and so many different players.

It certainly says alot for Tim, Pop and our Front Office.

Charles Barkley, Reggie Miller, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Patrick Ewing, Kevin Garnett, Chris Mullin, Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Hardaway, Alonzo Mourning, Allan Houston, Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Bernard King, == NO RINGS

If you had any doubt how special it is to win a Championship, just take a look at some of the best who don't have a ring.

[FleaFlicker]

This is a nucleus, though. Different from the 1999 and 2003 squads.

There's no Elie, or J/S Jax. There's no Malik. There's no DRob.

I think this nucleus will stay intact and will continue to stymie T'Shaun Prince for years to come.

[tmtcsc]

Originally Posted by FleaFlicker

The Spurs would sweep the Dynasty Bulls easily.

Let's not get crazy here. Did A Jordan team ever get swept ?