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  #1  
Old 11-20-04, 04:55 AM
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Do The Right Thing - Suspend Pacers for the Rest of the Season

The ugly brawl on Friday evening involving NBA players and Detroit fans should result in only one thing: Indiana Pacers players Ron Artest, Jermaine O’Neal and Stephen Jackson should be suspended without pay for the remainder of the 2004/2005 NBA season.

I have seen many different things in over 25 years as a sports fan, but I have never seen an incident so blatantly violent and disgusting as what we saw on a nationally televised game between the Detroit Pistons and Indiana Pacers. After being hit by a cup of beer by an unruly fan, Pacers forward Ron Artest jumped into the stands to physically attack him. He was followed by Pacers guard Stephen Jackson who is clearly seen on a videotape throwing punches at a fan in the stands. Pacers guard Fred Jones (in the stands trying to restrain teammates) was then assaulted by a fan. Pacers All Star Jermaine O’Neal is seen in the stands and then running up to a fan and hitting him squarely in the face with a closed fist. It escalated even further when Pistons fans began throwing beer, popcorn and other items at Indiana players trying to leave the court. Jermaine O’Neal is clearly seen on a video waving his hands toward himself implying “bring it on” to the fans, clearly continuing to insight an already chaotic crowd.

I am not in any way shape or form going to defend the fans that threw trash, beer or other items on the floor or at the players. They were clearly out of line and behaved beyond the bounds of decency. If you can make any excuse for the fan it’s that they were drunk and stupid. But after playing a hard fought nearly 48 minutes of basketball, I’m hope it’s safe to assume these Pacers players were neither.

When an NBA player crosses the ever shrinking line between professional athlete and common street thug, something has to be done.

If David Stern has any guts as a commissioner of the machine that is the National Basketball Association, he will make perhaps the most significant decision of his administration. David Stern should suspend all three Pacers players for the remainder of the season. Anything short of this penalty should be considered much too lenient for this crime. And let’s get this straight: a crime was committed. A crime was committed by an NBA player on an NBA court in an NBA arena. The Pacers players physically assaulted fans in the stands, and that is a crime. Regardless of how the melee was instigated, professional athletes stepped over the line and committed assault. And aside from the criminal and civil charges they will undoubtedly face as private citizens, they should be punished to the highest degree by the league that allows them to earn millions of dollars to play a game.

In 1995, Stern suspended then-Rockets guard Vernon Maxwell 10 games and fined him $20,000 for jumping into the stands in Portland and attacking a heckler. Maxwell got in one punch before he was restrained by authorities. You can make a weak case for Maxwell getting caught in the emotion of the incident. I can’t make any such case for these Pacers players.

Artest, Jackson and O’Neal all got in more than one punch and participated in a brawl that lasted more than a split second. They had to know exactly what they were doing because they continued to fight long after the brawl had obviously escalated out of control. O’Neal even clearly entices the crowd with his hands implying “bring it on”. Neither O’Neal nor his teammates appeared remorseful immediately afterward. In fact, they looked like they wanted to keep fighting. This incident was clearly more intense and outright brutal than the incident involving Maxwell.

In November 1997, then Warriors guard Latrell Sprewell was suspended (without pay) for the remainder of that season for choking his coach, PJ Carlesimo in a private practice session. Now that was a physical assault in a private setting between two employees of the NBA and the Golden State Warriors organization. Sprewell was suspended by the league for that incident for the remainder of the season (although it was later reduced to 68 games).

I will refuse to believe that David Stern should suspend these players for anything less than the remainder of this season, or 74 games. If he suspends Sprewell for the season for attacking a fellow NBA employee, what kind of punishment should these Pacers players receive for jumping into the stands and assaulting at fans?? If Stern triples the original Maxwell suspension, he will be sending the wrong message to not only NBA players, but professional athletes everywhere. To his players, he would be saying “You can’t attack fans or we’ll suspend you. But if you do, it will only be for 30 games”.

There is absolutely no room in organized sports for the unprofessional, irresponsible and brutal behavior of the professional athletes that attacked fans in the stands. It’s been debated countless times about whether or not athletes should be considered role models by the general public and especially young children. And regardless of which side of the argument you are on, the fact is that they are viewed as role models. I don’t see kids wearing a police officers uniform to the playground. I don’t see kids dressed as firemen as they play with their friends. Many times, we see children wearing the jersey of their favorite NBA player. These kids look up to these athletes and in a few short minutes, they shamed themselves, their families, Donnie Walsh and the Indiana Pacers, and the entire National Basketball Association. Failing to punish them severely for this incident will only tell these kids (who may only be a few years from the NBA themselves) that attacking fans is only worth a 30 game suspension. It’s not. It’s worth so much more.

These players will face criminal and civil trials that will probably stretch out over the next few seasons. Why not show these players that what they did to these fans was wrong in both the real world, and the fairytale world that is the NBA? If David Stern has any guts, he’ll lay down a hammer on these thugs the size of Mt Olympus. If he wants to continue to beam to the media about how great his league is, how great the players are, how much they do for the community, etc, etc, then he needs to take a monumental stand. He needs to show not only the NBA, but the other major sports as well, that his Page Ranking machine is not just lip service. He needs to prove to professional athletes that assaulting fans in the stands is the most serious crime you can commit in organized sports. NFL and MLB Commissioners Paul Tagliabue and Bud Selig respectively, will no doubt watch closely at how Stern handles this unique case of athletes attacking fans. He can set an important precedent in a sports world quickly escalating out of control.

Jermaine O’Neal is one of the league’s brightest stars. Ron Artest is an All Star, and Stephen Jackson is considered a budding star. Tonight they stepped over the line between star athlete and common criminal. That is the only way David Stern can look at it. What is right, and who was wrong.

He can’t worry that the Pacers will likely spiral to the bottom of the Eastern Conference. He can’t worry about ratings for future Pacer games. He can’t worry about playoff revenues or damaged merchandise sales. He can’t worry about Reggie Miller’s last shot at an NBA Title. He can’t worry about whose families will be affected by this ugly incident. He can’t worry about how this will affect the national perception of his NBA. He can’t worry about how this will affect Nike or Reebok or whomever’s company these players endorse. He can’t worry about the stock of these companies falling because of this incident. He can’t worry about all the hundreds of innocent people that will be directly affected by this incident in one shape or another. He can’t worry about any of that. Because Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O’Neal clearly did not. In the days and weeks to come, they’re going to rationalize their behavior in any number of ways and NBA Player’s Union head Billy Hunter will be at their side to defend their right to attack a paying customer.

Stern can’t worry about that now because he must only think about what is right and what is wrong. What these players did was wrong. Period. End of story. Now they must pay the price.

And if David Stern has the guts to do the right thing and to send the right message, they will do just that.

http://www.broadbandnewsnet.com/news...asp?a=1057&z=5
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  #2  
Old 11-20-04, 05:00 AM
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suspend everyone of the pacers involved i guess, and let the others be free agents for a year? i just dont see them punishing the whole team for something maybe 5 of them had something to do with, even though it was the best 5 players. and dont let any of the fans in any kind of nba game restricting order from any nba event for life? who knows whats gonna go on
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  #3  
Old 11-20-04, 05:14 AM
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Nice article
Quote:
Jermaine O’Neal is one of the league’s brightest stars. Ron Artest is an All Star, and Stephen Jackson is considered a budding star. Tonight they stepped over the line between star athlete and common criminal. That is the only way David Stern can look at it. What is right, and who was wrong.
No doubt.

We can only wish he does the right thing , but $$$$$$$$$$tern will lose $$$$$$$$, I doubt he willl suspend em more than 10 games. But he needs to avoid law suits too so we shall see.

He could come up with differenct excuses to protect players....Security, fans whatever..

Especially JOneal the face of that franchise...;)

BWallace instigated the whole thing... It will be interesting to see what he gets.....
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Last edited by spurscrazed; 11-20-04 at 05:22 AM.
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  #4  
Old 11-20-04, 05:14 AM
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I disagree with the author of this thread.
For so many reasons that I can't even begin to think about how I will list them all.
Professional Athletes are professional when they are playing basketball, Ben Wallace broke that code FIRST. Even after hitting Artest in THE THROAT, he still chased him and instigated the crowd even further. Professional Athletes are human beings, emotion overcomes common sense. They kept pushing and pushing and pushing. What happened with that Father and son who beat up the baseball base coach, they got probation? What satisfaction is there to a professional athlete knowing that if they restrain from fighting back, the fans will get their due punishment ?

I feel sorry for the kids that had to witness that.
those fans had it coming.
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  #5  
Old 11-20-04, 05:53 AM
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the governing body of the nba should stepped in and do sumthing about it like how fifa steps into soccer when there is sumthing wrong, and they dont care if ur a household name they still ban yah.

if the nba doesnt do anything about it, it shows that the league has double standards when dealin issues with teams n players.
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  #6  
Old 11-20-04, 06:01 AM
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Totally agree RichB, I can't wait to see just how much Artest and Jackson will lose in lawsuits filed by the innocent fans they attacked.
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Old 11-20-04, 06:05 AM
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mChief: that is an idiotic statement. The fans "got what was coming"? There was NO act committed that made it OK for Artest and Jackson to go running into the stands throwing wild punches at people. NONE! These guys make millions of dollars per year. Part of the job description is to put up with obnoxious, drunk idiots. Anybody that comes to the defense of their gansta-mentality and their lack of self control shows why there are problems like this in the first place.

Here's my breakdown:

ARTEST - Biggest violator. Threw a cheap foul in trash time for no good reason. Went into the stands. Punched (with a closed fist) several fans. Continued to "tweak" fans by sprawling out on the scorer's table and mugging for the media. It would have been hard to hit dude with a cup of beer if his sorry butt was standing up near his bench like it was supposed to be. His year should be DONE! This was every bit as serious as the Sprewell deal a few years back - and this was directed at fans. Either kick him out of the league or suspend him WITHOUT PAY for the rest of the season. Fine: $100,000

WALLACE - He certainly didn't help anything by overreacting to the foul. But, he didn't punch anyone that I could see. He DID keep egging everyone on. 10 game suspension. Fine: $20,000

JACKSON - Oh, Stevie! In SA, he had such good influences. Now, he's Artest's bong-buddy... Out of everyone there, he seemed to be the WORST instigator of all. He was LOOKING for a fight with anyone and everyone. Suspend him for the rest of the year without pay as well. He and Artest can share a jail cell... Fine: $35,000

J O'Neal - Classless. Punk. For all of the NBA's scuffles and melees, most of the time nobody ever REALLY lands a punch - just a bunch of sissy-boy slap fights. But not this idiot! He about killed the little fat dude that ran onto the court with that punch. He looked like Tyson! Great punch, stupid! You'll probably spend some time in jail for that one. That's assault. You can't hit somebody because they say some crap to you. Period. And for your prize, let's look in cell #1 - 10 days in the can for aggravated assault and have a seat for the rest of the year without pay. Fine: $100,000

There were other people who should also be fined. Both teams benches cleared (except for T. Prince). Every one of those guys have an automatic one-game suspension. As a rule, anyone that hit a fan should get AT LEAST 10 game suspensions - unless they were hit FIRST. Then, they get a 5 game suspension. Either way, $10,000 fine.

I think they should give T. Prince a bonus for actually staying on the bench like he was supposed to. Good job, T. You're the only one with a brain in your head. Reward: $10,000. Plus, they should start a new intervention program for stupid, drunk fans called the T. Prince Stupid A-Hole Anger Management Fund.

Some of the Detroit fans acted horribly - and their fate has already been sealed. They are pitiful losers who have basically pulled down their pants in front of the entire world. They'll never live it down. As far as punishment for the most elite of these nimrods, the dude who threw the beer at Artest should be charged with something (Drunken Ale-Lobbing?). The guys who came on the court were stupid since they broke an obvious rule. Deal with them accordingly (then, give the little fat dude gets his $10M settlement from J O'Neal's handlers --- I mean lawyers.

HORRIBLE! STUPID! GANSTA! PUNKS! SPOILED MILLIONAIRRE BABIES! CRAZY STANK RAP POSSE! There aren't enough words to describe how sad this is for basketball, Detroit and Indiana. If either of these two teams make it to the Finals, do you think anyone will want to talk about their game? Probably not.
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Old 11-20-04, 06:23 AM
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this offence is even worster then spree chokin the coach and he got one year ban, and these guys should get at least 2-3yrs max or just resind their contracts n kick them out of league
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  #9  
Old 11-20-04, 06:24 AM
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My opinions...

I feel that the NBA should only take action on what took place on the court between the Pistons players and Pacers players and for the players who went in the stands, not what happend in the stands. For now anyway.

As far as what happend with the fans, let the Detroit Police sort that mess out. If it is found that what Artest did was a crime (ie not self defense). Honestly, I did not see Artest actually swing on anyone when he went to the stands, which should help his case. The only punches he threw were at that buffoon on the court. Seeing as that guy shouldn't have even been on the court no matter what (the equivilant of jumping the wall at a baseball game), Artest could easily claim self-defense in that case. As a fan, if you go on the court, then you dont have a leg to stand on, especially if you are approaching a player during an altercation, fists raised or not.

The NBA should suspend players based on the police findings and assessments. Artest honestly has a very solid case imo based on how he handled the beginning of the conflict and the fact he never actually swung on the fans in the stands.

Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'neal are in some big trouble, though. Moreso Jackson.
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  #10  
Old 11-20-04, 06:33 AM
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Of all the guys, I think J Oneal is in the most trouble with the cops. He came running in and punched that little fat kid on the court. Whether he was on the court or not isn't the issue. Dude LANDED that punch. Everything else was pretty ticky-tack. But that dude has gotta have dain bramage after the shot he took.

Sjax is next in line of legal troubles - flailling away at fans in the stands like an animal on crack.

But Artest incited the whole thing. He kept egging it on. He sprawled out on the scorers table. And he did punch at least one guy. The guy in the stand, he just kinda pushed down, but that's not much better. You know that cat stopped at Walgreen's on the way home and bought himself a neck brace! He's gonna eat steak for a long time to come. Not to mention interviews on every sports talk show from here to Jupiter!
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  #11  
Old 11-20-04, 06:36 AM
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I couldn't disagree more Artest didn't egg it on, Ben Wallae did.
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  #12  
Old 11-20-04, 06:42 AM
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Wallace PUSHED Artest after a silly foul in trash time. Wallace DID egg it on to some extent, but nothing more than you see in many other NBA altercations. He should be fined and suspended as well, but Artest was OBVIOUSLY the one who started this brawl.

Artest was acting like a clown - like Rodman taking his shirt off. If there's any such thing as "passive aggressive" egging on, that was it. Laying on the scorer's table...putting on a headset...

Dude - if you're gonna be defending Artest, be prepared for a long few days. You're gonna be in the minority.
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  #13  
Old 11-20-04, 06:48 AM
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Artest did act like a clown, no doubt. But the NBA is not gonna suspend him for laying on the scorers table ignoring Ben Wallace. The NBA will suspend him for running in the stands actin a fool, but he did not PUNCH anyone in the stands. The only punches he threw were at the dude on the court, which is completely off limits for fans.

The guy wasn't coming up to shake Ron's hand, thats for sure. Ron had every right to hit that guy. Ron did not seek that guy out, it was the other way around. Trust me, I have a feeling Ron's suspension will surprisingly short. The only thing they have on him without a doubt is going into the stands. That should set him back 5 games.
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Old 11-20-04, 06:49 AM
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They should be suspended, no question. The remainder of the season might be a bit too long. Calling it a crime is a ridiculous overstatement. Let's keep it to proportions.
No fight should be allowed on an NBA court. I don't care who's to blame. Suspend the pacers for a few games, suspend Detroit's arena for a few games too, and ben wallace. No one's right in this case.
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  #15  
Old 11-20-04, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grif
Wallace PUSHED Artest after a silly foul in trash time. Wallace DID egg it on to some extent, but nothing more than you see in many other NBA altercations. He should be fined and suspended as well, but Artest was OBVIOUSLY the one who started this brawl.

Artest was acting like a clown - like Rodman taking his shirt off. If there's any such thing as "passive aggressive" egging on, that was it. Laying on the scorer's table...putting on a headset...

Dude - if you're gonna be defending Artest, be prepared for a long few days. You're gonna be in the minority.
If you expect me to care that I'm in the minority, I don't. I doubt the reaction to the individual player, Ron Artest, would be as severe if it were just about anybody else based on people's assesment of his past actions rather than analyzing the specific incident.
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Old 11-20-04, 06:51 AM
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As a fan, running on the floor is like running onto the stage during a concert. What happens to the guys who run on stage during a concert? He gets the crap beat out of him, thats what. And legally speaking, he cant do ish about it because he is forbidden from going there in the first place.

Last edited by dn0774; 11-20-04 at 06:58 AM.
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  #17  
Old 11-20-04, 06:56 AM
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Pacers are up by 15 with 45 seconds left. Artest delivers a hard foul to Wallace on his way to the basket. You keep saying Wallace started it. That's bull Artest started it, then slithered off with his tail between his legs when he realized he'd messed with the wrong dude. He was staying away from Wallace because if he didn't, he'd have gotten his butt handed to him.

That being said, Wallace overreacted and should be fined. But he didn't punch anyone - that was dudes like Artest and Jackson and J ONeal. I think some other guy did, too. Those are the ones who should get punished to the fullest extent.

And you're not convincing me that anyone was being threatened by the fat little kid that ran onto the court. Just because he's on the court doesn't mean he no longer has any rights. ONeal ran from out of nowhere and just about killed him. It didn't look like self defense to me.
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Old 11-20-04, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grif
Pacers are up by 15 with 45 seconds left. Artest delivers a hard foul to Wallace on his way to the basket. You keep saying Wallace started it. That's bull Artest started it, then slithered off with his tail between his legs when he realized he'd messed with the wrong dude. He was staying away from Wallace because if he didn't, he'd have gotten his butt handed to him.

That being said, Wallace overreacted and should be fined. But he didn't punch anyone - that was dudes like Artest and Jackson and J ONeal. I think some other guy did, too. Those are the ones who should get punished to the fullest extent.

And you're not convincing me that anyone was being threatened by the fat little kid that ran onto the court. Just because he's on the court doesn't mean he no longer has any rights. ONeal ran from out of nowhere and just about killed him. It didn't look like self defense to me.
It wasn't a kid, it was a man. If you were in Artests shoes, what would you have done. If a guy is walking up on you during a massive altercation, you protect yourself first and ask questions later. Perhaps the guy has a weapon of some sort, who know? The fact is the guy was on the court and shouldn't have been. He certainly still has rights, but why was he on the court? Do you think his intentions were positive? No way.

That being said, what Jermaine O'neal did was excessive and he will pay for it. Artest just put the guy down and got away, wheres the problem. Talk all you want about "inciting" everything, Artest handled Wallace's reaction great. He remained calm and let the officials resolve it. Meanwhile, some drunk fans who were frustrated their team was getting killed decided throw objects at players.

You may not care for Artest (obviously), but the blame for what happend is the fault of several Detroit fans getting a little to big for their briches, not Ron.
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  #19  
Old 11-20-04, 08:01 AM
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those fans got what was coming to them. you don't mess with artest.
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  #20  
Old 11-20-04, 08:04 AM
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nice article RichB

i agree
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  #21  
Old 11-20-04, 08:46 AM
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Artest, Stephen Jackson and O'neil were by FAR the worst people involved in this last night besides the fans itself

This thing was getting cooled down till Artest FLEW off that Scorers table after getting hit by a cup....he then proceeded to kick the crap out of someone in the stands

Stephen Jackson was in there too and punched a fan with a haymaker punch. What a freakin jackass

O'neal flat cold cocked a fan who was getting up off the floor

Hell the police were about to PEPPER SPRAY Artest in the face before Pacers officals stepped in

Artest, O'neal, and Jackson should receive the stiffest fines and suspension from this

I dont excuse the pistons or the fans....but getting a cup in your face (Artest) doesnt give you the open right to GO INTO the stands and beat the crap out of people there

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason R
I couldn't disagree more Artest didn't egg it on, Ben Wallae did.

How the hell you keep defending Artest all night I have no idea. The guy came off the scorers table and went into the stands to beat the crap out of fans who threw a cup on him. Sure the fan was wrong to throw a cup but that doesnt give Artest free reign to go into the STANDS

He was TOTALLY out of control last night. He was a man possessed with the look in his eyes. The police wanted to PEPPER SPRAY him he was so out of control

Wallace isnt right either...but to excuse Artest the way you have in some of your statements is totally unbelieveable. He should be gone for the rest of the season at least

as should J'Oneal and freakin Stephen JAckson

Quote:
I don't. I doubt the reaction to the individual player, Ron Artest, would be as severe if it were just about anybody else based on people's assesment of his past actions rather than analyzing the specific incident.
The guy went off the scorers table into the stands to punch the crap out of a fan...he didnt even get the right guy (big lawsuit coming) Im sorry...I dont care if it was Tony Parker or Ron Artest. There was NO EXCUSE whatsoever for Artests actions just because he had a cup hit his face

that doesnt mean its free reign to enter the stands and go off like a wild man
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  #22  
Old 11-20-04, 09:00 AM
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Didn't care for that article at all. Don't make it physical if you don't want it to get physical.
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  #23  
Old 11-20-04, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevm2
Didn't care for that article at all. Don't make it physical if you don't want it to get physical.
so it was ok for Artest to go into the stands and beat the crap out of fans because someone threw a plastic cup on him?

so it was ok for SJ to sucker punch a guy in the stands?

so it was ok for J'oneal to sucker punch a fat guy getting off the ground?

Like I said...Artest was so out of control the police almost pepper sprayed him

Not sure what your trying to say here
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  #24  
Old 11-20-04, 09:18 AM
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I think oneal might get to go to jail now
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  #25  
Old 11-20-04, 09:20 AM
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So it was OK for a 'fan' to throw a cup of beer at a guy known for his crazy antics after he's trying to cool down from an altercation? It's excusable because the guy was drunk, right? Last I heard, drinking wasn't an excuse for getting in a car wreck, so why should it be excused in this situation? Yeah, under NO circumstances should players go into the stands, but under NO circumstances should fans physically provoke the players.
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  #26  
Old 11-20-04, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevm2
So it was OK for a 'fan' to throw a cup of beer at a guy known for his crazy antics after he's trying to cool down from an altercation? It's excusable because the guy was drunk, right? Last I heard, drinking wasn't an excuse for getting in a car wreck, so why should it be excused in this situation? Yeah, under NO circumstances should players go into the stands, but under NO circumstances should fans physically provoke the players.
I didnt say it was ok for someone to throw cup

but its in NO WAY ok for Artest to go into the stands for that and beat the crap out of a fan

the WRONG GUY at that!!!

Just because some fan was a jackass for throwing a cup isnt justification for Artest to do what he did. I cant believe anyone around here is defending him for that..and a select few are

Artest was totally out of control, as was Jackson and O'neal

No one is saying the fans were right at all

but you cant just excuse The pacers players for going crazy all because Artest had a plastic cup come down on him while he was laying down.
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  #27  
Old 11-20-04, 09:25 AM
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I think Artest and Jackson should face severe penalties for going into the stands. Any action that took place in the stands is the blame of the players. What happened on the court is the fans fault. Artest and ONeal beating up fans on the court is the fan's fault. If there's a roit going on, and you come into my work area with threatening intent, I'm gonna hit you. As much as there is no excuse for players going into the stands, there is no excuse for fans coming onto the court. The amount of money these players make or the nature of their proffession has nothing to do with it. If there's a riot on the street, and I work in a store and you come in there, I have to right to defend my space. There is a clear boundary between the stands and the court. The fans should feel protected and unthreatened in the stands, and the players should feel the same way on the court. If a player goes into the stands, he should get beat up. If a fan comes onto the court, the same rule applies. The difference in salary or fame has nothing to do with it. Its pretty retarded for a fan to come out on the court and face off with a 6'8" 250 lb athlete in the first place.

I think Artest and Jackson should be suspended for the remainder of the season, and pay the civil penalties for assaulting the fans in the stands. O'Neal should be suspended for 10 days but should not have to face civil assault penalties. Ben Wallace should be suspended for 4 days for hitting Artest in the throat. The fans who came on the court should face civil assault penalties, including the one who first threw the cup, since that counts as crossing the border between the stands and the court.

$

Last edited by Money4Nothing; 11-20-04 at 09:30 AM.
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  #28  
Old 11-20-04, 09:29 AM
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i say fire POP.
he must have orchestrated this.
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  #29  
Old 11-20-04, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus
i say fire POP.
he must have orchestrated this.
No I think it was Shaq trying to get rid of his competition in the Eastern Conference

$
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  #30  
Old 11-20-04, 10:40 AM
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I'm with the consensus that says the players should not have gone into the stands. In my household I'm in the minority. 4-1. I admit both sides were totally wrong, but one wrong doesn't right another wrong. The league cannot condone or encourage players going into the stands. If it allows any of these players to get off the hook because the fans were wrong, it will send a very bad message for the next time someone throws a cup or says something nasty to a player. Remember how the rule about getting off the bench to join in a brawl curbed a lot of the brawls like the one where Van Gundy was biting Mourning's leg. Well I'm looking at a 10 game suspension at the very least for all the players involved. The only guy I would excuse would be Rasheed, because the guy was like the calm in the middle of the storm, a true peacemaker.

I don't know about the rest of the season, but the suspensions have to be strong. You don't go into the stands, no matter what. As for the fans, prosecute them, and stop selling booze. Do that in Detroit.
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  #31  
Old 11-20-04, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Money4Nothing
No I think it was Shaq trying to get rid of his competition in the Eastern Conference

$
That's what I was thinking. This should at least make it easier for someone other than these two teams to get home court advantage. Heck, JKidd may even make a miraculous recovery.

How many of those suits sitting courtside do you think were lawyers? I noticed the one guy in an olive colored suit reaching for his business cards in the middle of the tiff.
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  #32  
Old 11-20-04, 10:49 AM
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i disagree with you richb, beginning with your assessment of what crimes may have been committed. assault is creating fear of harm, battery is harm. but i think it's a precarious situation in which fans can assault players, potentially harming their sight which is a primary skill required for the game of basketball. if a player gets to the fan that throws something at him before the security does, there's a problem with the level of security. if somebody jumps on the stage at a concert, security is on them like stink on ****. why are basketball players less protected than rock stars?

i think they need to be punished because they could have shown restraint and had the fans ejected that threw the cup, that's what should have happened, but i don't think retaliation is as bad as instigating. the fan should be thrown in jail for a short time and banned from nba games for life.
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  #33  
Old 11-20-04, 11:08 AM
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I will withhold commentary, aside from expressing my complete shock and dismay at how some posters on this site seem willing to extend that "NBA fairytale" to the extent of commuting criminal behavior to activity "just part of a physical game."

Sad.
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  #34  
Old 11-20-04, 11:18 AM
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Any fan who goes onto the court of play without being directly provoked is subject to getting hurt/hit. If not by security, by players. You just don't do that in this day and age of security concerns. He got clocked hard, yes, but he had no business being on the court, and even less confronting the players in any way.
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  #35  
Old 11-20-04, 11:42 AM
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This article is bullsh!t
So Ron Artest is to blame ? Buying a season ticket doesn't mean you can throw beer at people's face. You throw beer at me, i'll wanna kick your ass.
Sad thing is Ron and some Pacers will be suspended the whole season and the fat drunken mf will get his $$$.
NBA sucks...
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  #36  
Old 11-20-04, 11:45 AM
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The fans who ran on tothe court broke a law. It's illegal to enter the field/court during
play. Even though they weren't playing, the police and security was trying to calm
things. This was not an off duty officer helping. It was a short squatty fat dude who
wanted to get invovled. He broke the law by attempting to assualt Artest. Artest
had every right to defend himself. Oneal...he really assaulted, but the guy was on
the court. I just dont see that guy getting anything in was of lawsuit.

It was said that it was like an out of body experince...I couldn't agree more.
My reaction was the same as when the Twin Towers came down....utter shock.
Disbelief. Unreal.

This is going to be amazing!

If there was any talk of lockouts next season...its for SURE gonna happen now!

No Hockey this season, No NBA next season.

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Last edited by Sith Lord; 11-20-04 at 11:48 AM.
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  #37  
Old 11-20-04, 12:41 PM
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This "self-defense" argument is a crock of BS. First, it was a cup of beer. Call it retaliation, but don't call it self-defense. The former counts as MITIGATION while the latter counts as JUSTIFICATION. Second, Artest didn't even know who threw the beer. He charged this fellow, took him down, and later realized he got the wrong guy.

Ditto with Stephen Jackson. He punched a guy for throwing another splash of drink at Artest. Again, perfectly understandable as MITIGATION, but not sufficient as JUSTIFICATION.

Ditto with Jermaine O'Neal. Yup, the fat guy was on the court, but he was surrounded by personnel and did not pose any kind of threat. O'Neal just charged him and leveled him with a punch, putting all his 260lbs body and momentum into it.

I understand that many posters and people believe that, if placed in the same situation as those three guys, they would do exactly the same thing, and so those three guys can't have been wrong. But I think we should recognize that even if we'd do exactly the same thing, its STILL wrong.

The right thing for the League to do would be to suspend those 3 guys indefinitely. As for the fans, let the Detroit Police deal with them.
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  #38  
Old 11-20-04, 12:44 PM
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The end of the NBA is near. The sky is falling. The end of civilization is coming (can see the old guy with the sign outside the SBC center at the next home game). Nostradomas has been sighted in every NBA arena. All of this is as ridiculous as the melee was. Should there be suspensions and fines, yes, but nothing done by the Pacer players was criminal. The fans yes, players no. How many more incidents like this one and the ones during the Baseball season are going to allowed to occur before we as fans realize that when we buy a ticket, we can cheer, boo, wave ballons behind the basket on freethrows, make noise, etc. etc., but we don't have the right to curse players, harass players, use racial slurs, etc. etc. The fans in this case stepped way over the line and provoked the entire situation. Not just the idiot that threw the beer at Artest, or, the idiot that came out on the court looking for a fight, but the 100's of idiots that threw things at the players as they were LEAVING THE COURT. There is no excuse for this behaviour and as these people are identified they should forfeit their right to ever attend another sporting event. While it is hard to justify a player going into the stands, it is understandable. Just how much abuse must a player be subjected to before he snaps. I'm sure that fan thought he could get away with throwing the beer at Artest because he figured nothing would happen to him. However threw the beer at the wrong guy, a guy with a history and he just snapped. As for SJax (he's not my favorite player), he went in to defend Artest as the guy in the baseball cap was pounding on him. Right no, but understandable under the circumstances. As for the fat guy who came out on the floor, got what he deservered. He challenged Artest and got hit, he then got into it with coach Mike Brown and I can understand O'neals reaction when he saw his coach on the floor and this guy starting to get up again. Who knows what he saw, was it threatening, we don't know for sure, but the fan had no business on the floor threatening or taunting any player or coach. That fan got what he deserved and now he should be arrested and never allowed into another sporting event. I think Richard B. is way over the line here, 5-10 game suspensions yes, but not the entire year. The sky is not falling and this is not the end of the world or the NBA. Let us not overeact as both the players and the fans did in this instance. As for the fans, of which I'm one, let us learn that we go to these events to be entertained for an evening of thrills and fun. Our ticket is not a right of passage to get drunk and abuse the entertainers either verbally or physically. As fans, we must understand that we are spectators not participants. As wrong as the players were for overreacting, I'm feel shamed by these type of fans who think a ticket to a game is a ticket to be an irritating, foul mouthed, beer swilliing, low life coward.
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  #39  
Old 11-20-04, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weilin
This article is bullsh!t
So Ron Artest is to blame ? Buying a season ticket doesn't mean you can throw beer at people's face. You throw beer at me, i'll wanna kick your ass.
Sad thing is Ron and some Pacers will be suspended the whole season and the fat drunken mf will get his $$$.
NBA sucks...
Sad thing? It's a Sad thing?? What exactly is "sad" about these players getting what they deserve??

They'll be luckly if they don't get jail time! They assault fans in the stands for whatever reasons and you think they should NOT get the stiffest punishment in NBA history?

Let me repeat myself, in case you didn't catch it in the article.

The Pacers players assaulted fans in the stands.

They ran into the stands after being instigated by certain fans and proceeded to attack said fan physically. Call it battery, call it assault, it is still a crime. It is. Regardless of who did what, and where it happened, a crime was committed. And if you're willing to take blinders off for a second, you'll see that to be true.

I'm not excusing the idiotic behavior of the fans in Detroit. You're right: buying a ticket doesn't give you a right to throw crap on the floor. But how many times have we seen that in a proffessional sports enviornment? This is NOT the first time a fan throws something at a player or onto the playing field.

You may not remember this, but back in the 70's, when the Spurs and Nuggets had their rivalry going, Larry Brown (Nuggets coach) said that the only thing he liked about SA was guacamole salad. Next game, several Spurs fans (Baseline Bums, I believe) brought guacamole to the game and dumped it on Larry Brown as he walked onto the arena. Did Larry Brown jump into the stands to beat the sh!t out of fans? No, he didn't. Why? Because regardless of what a fan did to you from the stands, you don't go up there and beat the sh!t out of them. There's just no way to justify these players actions.

The Pistons fans who threw the crap will be handled by the police. They'll be found out and charges will be pressed. That's the responsibility of Detroit police. But really the worst thing they did was throw a paper cup full of beer.

Artest, O'Neal and Jackson are the responsibility of the Pacers organization and the NBA. They should get punished not only by the law (because regardless of where it happened and who it was, a crime was committed) but they should be punished by the very company they are paid to represent.

NBA players were throwing punches and assaulting fans in the crowd and inciting a near riot. There is no way you can spin that positively for the athlete. They are on videotape assaulting fans as they wear the uniform of an NBA player.

We have to put aside our feelings for these players as entertainers or heroes. We have to put aside our warm feelings for Stephen Jackson and look at this objectively people. They f@#ked up, and now they should pay the price. I don't care if it was Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, or Yao Ming that would have done this. It was wrong. It was completely wrong and they should be punished by the authorities and by the league.

If Stern is gonna suspend Sprewell for a season, for choking out a fellow employee of the NBA, how can David Stern NOT supend these guys the same amount of time, for attacking fans in the stands? I just can't fathom how he would do anything less.
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  #40  
Old 11-20-04, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB
I am not in any way shape or form going to defend the fans that threw trash, beer or other items on the floor or at the players. They were clearly out of line and behaved beyond the bounds of decency. If you can make any excuse for the fan it’s that they were drunk and stupid. But after playing a hard fought nearly 48 minutes of basketball, I’m hope it’s safe to assume these Pacers players were neither.
Ok this is just incorrect. Yes the players may not have been drunk on alcohol, but that doesn't mean they weren't high off of adreneline. This was a hard fought game between 2 bitter rivals, so tempers/egos were already higher than they would normally be. Yes a hard foul is what started this whole thing but I'm fairly certain Artest did it because it was the heat of the moment. Had the pacers been playing the bobcats; first he wouldn't have been in there in garbage time, second I doubt he really wouldn't have cared about a meaningless dunk. So maybe we should blame Larry Brown for keeping his starters in when the game was clearly over. Or maybe we should blame the refs for not keeping a tighter reign on the game. OR maybe we should place equal blame on everybody.

Artest shouldn't have committed the hard foul. Wallace shouldn't have overreacted. The fan shouldn't have thrown the beer. The players that went after Artest shouldn't have thrown punches but rather just pulled him out and dragged him to the lockerroom. The fans shouldn't have walked onto the court. And EVERYBODY should have calmed the heck down.
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  #41  
Old 11-20-04, 12:58 PM
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Rich B.

Respectfully, you are an idiot. If I was ever assaulted by a crowd of people I sure wouldn't want you at my back. Yes, throwing a full beer on an unsuspecting person is considered an assault. Did Artest overreact, yes, but I can understand it. As for Jackson, he entered the stands after Artest was being attacked by a couple of other fans in order to protect his teammate. Just look what happened to Fred Jones, he tries to help stop the fight and some fat guy in a grey shirt attacks him. Same for Oneal, you don't know what he saw other than Mike Brown on the floor with a guy about to get back up and do who knows what, so he reacted and decked him. The fan never should have been on the FLOOR.

Again, I think you're an idiot, but that's just my opinion. Just glad you weren't in my foxhole when I was in Viet Nam.
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  #42  
Old 11-20-04, 01:08 PM
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I think the writer is wrong. Buying a ticket to a game does not give you the right to take matters into your own hands. As far as O'neal puching that jerk in the face. he deserved it. He was telling Artest to bring it on. I think once they got on the floor it was open season. It's just like when these idiots run onto the football field. I don't feel sorry for them when they get cold cocked by a linebacker!! Besides, aren't these the same fans that burn down the city every time they win a championship!
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  #43  
Old 11-20-04, 01:08 PM
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One comment re: the years of litigation -- the civil trials will undoubtedly be settled quickly. Criminal trials will depend on pressing charges, and it's unclear how many fans will actually do that, but regardless, I think the chance of protracted civil litigation is slim.
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  #44  
Old 11-20-04, 01:11 PM
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damnit will you people stop saying throwing a beer is ASSAULT!

Assault by definition is intent to cause injury to another... a freakin cup of beer will not do that!

Yes, the jackass who threw the beer should be put in jail, but in no way does it justify the brutal beating and riot started by Artest, SJAX and others. Some of the punches thrown were self defense, I understand that, but it only turned into a riot when Artest started beating the crap out of a fan...which just happened to be the WRONG GUY!

Also, I don't agree with the punishments you listed Rich, to me:

Artest: rest of the season, large fine (and he will be sued for assault charges, since the guy he beat up wasn't the guy who threw the cup)
SJAX: rest of the season, large fine (probably some assault charge)
JO: 20-30 game suspension, large fine
Wallace: 5 game suspension, small fine
other people: fines
Detroit Fans: closed stadium for 3 home games, blacked out games as well durring that time
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  #45  
Old 11-20-04, 01:23 PM
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http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=assault

Has Ben Wallace explained himself yet? Why did he flip out to begin with? There had to have been something that's happened in the past between those two.

Larry Brown is lucky that fake hip wasn't ripped out of his skin when he was trying to hold back Sheed.

The fans are the ones who lose out in all of this. This isn't good. What's next? A frickin chain link fence between the court and the fans?
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  #46  
Old 11-20-04, 01:24 PM
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Throwing a full cup of beer on somebody is an assault. This was stated by the Assistant Police Chief of Auburn Hills when he was interviewed by Jim Gray. Does it justify Artest's actions, no, but I do understand his reaction. Just think, if you were playing a softball game somewhere beating the hell out of the home team and some idiot threw a full cup of beer at you (cup and all) how would you react. I know, you would just sit there and take it, just waiting for the next object to be thrown at you. NOT ME, I'm going to defend myself and hope I've got backup. As for SJAX, give him a break. The guy he went after was just about to jump on Artest, just look at the video, and Artest was already being hit by two other fans. All SJAX was trying to do was defend his teammate. If you've never been in one of these melee's you just don't know how you would react. I've been there and reacted just like SJAX did in trying to protect my friend who was about to get the crap beat out of him. Yes, he started it just like Artest, but I just couldn't stand by while he was getting jumped by four other people. I had to defend my friend any way I could and that included joining the battle. Sorry, but S**T happens.
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  #47  
Old 11-20-04, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebabouin
They should be suspended, no question. The remainder of the season might be a bit too long. Calling it a crime is a ridiculous overstatement. Let's keep it to proportions.
No fight should be allowed on an NBA court. I don't care who's to blame. Suspend the pacers for a few games, suspend Detroit's arena for a few games too, and ben wallace. No one's right in this case.
A few games???

Anything less than 50 games is way too few.!

If these guys are lucky maybe they can arrange for concurrent punishments and serve their NBA suspensions along with their jail sentences.
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  #48  
Old 11-20-04, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnwhuxley
This "self-defense" argument is a crock of BS. First, it was a cup of beer. Call it retaliation, but don't call it self-defense. The former counts as MITIGATION while the latter counts as JUSTIFICATION. Second, Artest didn't even know who threw the beer. He charged this fellow, took him down, and later realized he got the wrong guy.

Ditto with Stephen Jackson. He punched a guy for throwing another splash of drink at Artest. Again, perfectly understandable as MITIGATION, but not sufficient as JUSTIFICATION.

Ditto with Jermaine O'Neal. Yup, the fat guy was on the court, but he was surrounded by personnel and did not pose any kind of threat. O'Neal just charged him and leveled him with a punch, putting all his 260lbs body and momentum into it.

I understand that many posters and people believe that, if placed in the same situation as those three guys, they would do exactly the same thing, and so those three guys can't have been wrong. But I think we should recognize that even if we'd do exactly the same thing, its STILL wrong.

The right thing for the League to do would be to suspend those 3 guys indefinitely. As for the fans, let the Detroit Police deal with them.
I completely disagree. The fan who threw that had it coming. I know it was just a drink, but you never know what other stuff could be thrown at them. For instance, later in that incident there was a chair thrown in the direction of O'Neal. It didn't hit him, but I would consider that a weapon wouldn't you?

My point is that even though it began as just a cup it could have escalated into something far greater, being thrown by other fans. If you look at it from that standpoint then that means that Artest was acting in self-defense.

Also, although I respect both DizzG and RichB's opinions on most all of the topics, I cannot fathom how someone could blame this on the Pacers players. First of all, anyone that thinks that the foul by Artest was hard is a retard. I mean seriously it wasn't hard and freaking Ben Wallace should not have reacted to it in that way. Then Wallace further continued his childish behavior and tried to instigate a fight with Artest, when all Artest was doing was laying on the scorer's table. I think because of Artest's rep many people put the blame on him, but I think that the blame goes first to Ben Wallace for acting like a pu$$y when his team is losing, and second on the stupid fan who thought that Artest would not, and could not, do anything if he threw the cup at him. Do you really think that the fan would have thrown that if he threw Artest would beat the sh!t out of him? NOOO! The fan thought that he could do anything and no one would hurt him.

Next, how in the world are you going to blame SJ DizzG. He was protecting Artest and trying to get him out of there, but another stupid aZZ fan threw another drink at them. Then Stepen Jackson threw a punch at him and the fan (when you see it from an angle ran away, obviously that fan thought he could get away with it too.) The only person on the Pistons who had the balls to stop the fight was Rasheed, (Man, he gained so much respect from me yesterday.) Everyone else put their tails between their legs and ran away.

The only person on the Pacers who I believe did the wrong thing was O'Neal. He did not need to punch that dude because the security people were around them, but that was one hell of a punch, best punch I have seen in a while.

Finally, the fans were the most dispicable of all. I can't believe so many people were throwing drinks, chairs, popcorn on to the players when they were going into the locker rooms. I mean, come on, I know they are the rivals, but their were kids their crying, and old lady got crushed, not literally, underneath those stupid fans. Overall, it was a horrible day for the NBA, but I believe that the fans and Ben Wallace should get the first blame.
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  #49  
Old 11-20-04, 01:30 PM
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A presecedent was set in 1997 when Latrell Sprewell attacked a fellow NBA employee. According to witnesses, Sprewell was provoked by the language and yelling of his coach. He was suspended for the remainder of that season by David Stern for choking a fellow NBA employee in a private setting.

If THAT warrants a suspension of that kind, how can this incident (which involved several players attacking fans in the stands!) possibly warrant anything less than the same suspension?

Call me an idiot if it makes you feel better. I don't really care.

It don't care who started what and who deserved what. I'm not defending some idiot fans who threw crap on the floor, but I will never defend these players or justify these players actions. It was wrong, and they should be punished. And I don't see how anyone can spin this any other way.
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Old 11-20-04, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weilin
You throw beer at me, i'll wanna kick your ass.

NBA sucks...
And you too will get to spend time in jail.
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