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mvh5086 06-12-13 12:01 PM

Kawhi runs offense
 
I hope I'm not the only who notices this but when Kawhi initiates the O, I see good/great things happen. Not just in this series, it has happened the entire playoffs. When he brings it up there is a faster pace and it lets Parker or any other shooter come flying off screens for a shot or layup and it even sets up Timmy/Tiago down low.

esparzar1 06-12-13 12:05 PM

Dude is a stud.....getting better with each game he plays. Really starting to look comfortable out there. His offensive rebounding has been huge and I love his hustle. He is literally outplaying LeBron through the first 3 game....crazy stuff

Uwe Blab 06-12-13 12:33 PM

I've been saying that he needs to take some touches away from Manu, because KY will usually score or go to the foul line when he handles it.

alh1020 06-12-13 01:01 PM

Our 'boring' Spurs and guys like Green, Neal and Kawhi are getting the righteous exposure that they are due. And I have to agree with you, Uwe, that Manu ain't playing right and should see lesser minutes.

Jose_TheGenius 06-12-13 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uwe Blab (Post 1299129)
I've been saying that he needs to take some touches away from Manu, because KY will usually score or go to the foul line when he handles it.

i totally agree with this.

problem is: if Kawhi gets Manu's touches to initiate the offense, what does Manu do? he hasn't been a reliable spot up shooter or defender, can't rebound the ball. he'd basically be that guy on the open floor looking to dunk while a defender's back is to him (again, initiated by Leonard)

pjm 06-12-13 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius (Post 1299170)
problem is: if Kawhi gets Manu's touches to initiate the offense, what does Manu do? he hasn't been a reliable spot up shooter or defender, can't rebound the ball. he'd basically be that guy on the open floor looking to dunk while a defender's back is to him (again, initiated by Leonard)

I'll take Uwe's comments since he has been saying it all along. But you are just jumping into the Manu-hating bandwagon right now.

esparzar1 06-12-13 04:13 PM

I don't think it's a bad thing having Kawhi handle the ball more, I look at it as only positive for everyone, it just gives the Spurs another option to run the Offense through as well as making it more difficult for the defense to stop. They don't have to worry about just the "Big 3" but now Kawhi and possibly DG? The more the merrier!!!!!!

Jose_TheGenius 06-12-13 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm (Post 1299183)
I'll take Uwe's comments since he has been saying it all along. But you are just jumping into the Manu-hating bandwagon right now.

i do hate his play. he hasn't done anything special and he's not getting flack for it. if Green didn't make 3's, he'd be horrid. if TP wasn't playing at a high level, he was overrated.

Manu? well if he sucks, that's because no one else is stepping up. let's get real, he's overpaid at $14 million and the only play from Game 3 that's being talked about is a wide open dunk.

if that's Manu hating, then sign me up.

it always seems that if you disagree or don't like the way the (arguably) most popular player is playing, it's "hating". yet, no one is coming to his defense with actual reasoning. it's always "he'll show up the next game".

pjm 06-13-13 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius (Post 1299198)
i do hate his play. he hasn't done anything special and he's not getting flack for it. if Green didn't make 3's, he'd be horrid. if TP wasn't playing at a high level, he was overrated.

Manu? well if he sucks, that's because no one else is stepping up. let's get real, he's overpaid at $14 million and the only play from Game 3 that's being talked about is a wide open dunk.

if that's Manu hating, then sign me up.

it always seems that if you disagree or don't like the way the (arguably) most popular player is playing, it's "hating". yet, no one is coming to his defense with actual reasoning. it's always "he'll show up the next game".

A while ago I enjoyed your posts and you gave some good insights. Lately all you do is stick to your opinion like it's set on stone and when someone points to things that go against or seem to contradict your opinion you just ignore what others say and keep on with the same skewed view.
I shouldn't even bother since you will probably ignore the parts you don't like or go against what you think.
But since lately I've been posting some things on the subject, I'll keep going a little longer.

I think Manu is getting plenty flack for his game right now. Not only in this board, but from himself (he has been posting arcticles where he recognizes he is not playing the best that he can) and from his teammates as well ("he is saving his best for last" comments, etc).

About how much he is being paid, yes, he is the player being payed the most right now and he is not playing like the highest paid player on this team. But if you wanted to cross sides and defend that position against others saying that, you would be arguing that contracts are usually loaded on the back and he is on the last year of his contract when Timmy has received a big paycut (he was getting a lot more in the last years of his last contract) and Tony is also in the first years of his contract. I guess we are all expecting Manu to take a big paycut the way Timmy did but right now his pay is what it is.
When considering if a player is overpayed you have to look at his whole contract and if you think it's wrong to overpay a player in his last years when he is aging you can blame the front office for not considering this.

With regards to that wide open dunk, I will say it again since I guess you weren't watching that part of the game or even the highlights. He had two dunks last game. One was the "wide open dunk" you keep mentioning (which was not very impressive in my opinion). The other one was in a hlaf court set where he faked a 3 for Wade to get off his feet and then drove all the way to the rim. At least for me, that was the dunk that caught my attention because he hasn't been doing many of them lately. And I guess the other people that mentioned Manu's dunks were thinking more of that dunk and not the !wide open dunk" you keep bringing up.

When you only see the things you want to see and are blind/ignore the rest of the things that won't serve your point of view on the argument, then that's hating and that is just what you are doing right now. So yeah, you are signed up there but I must say you are a late recruit in that bandwagon. I didn't see you hating that much on him in years past (and no, he has not been great all the time during all those years so there were plenty of chances to hate if you wanted to).

As I said to Uwe on another thread where he said no one was arguing about the bad play from Manu, I posted a few stats from these playoffs to show that even though he hasn't been stellar like we wanted to, he had his contributions and he even stepped up his game during crunch time (still not great, but better than during the rest of the game). About "coming to Manu's defense with reasoning" I don't see much reasoning from you when bashing him. I'm not sure if you will call that "reasoning" but I've posted some stats from these playoffs and I'll add some more now.
If you followed Manu's development throughout his career (which I'm sure you did) you will notice that he has been changing his game to adapt to his aging. From the early stages of his career up until now, he has less "fearless" drives to the basket because his body can't endure that as it did a decade ago. He improved on his 3 point shot (although it has been really off these playoffs). He has been focusing more on being a facilitator instead of a finisher.
If you check his stats these playoffs you are going to see the following.
Here are Manu's stats in the 14 Spurs wins:

Games: 14
Minutes: 24.9
Shooting %: 37.2-29.5-74.1 (FG-3FG-FT)
Rebounds: 4.1
Assists: 5.5
Turnovers: 2.3
Steals: 1.1
Blocks: 0.3
Fouls: 2.0
Points: 10.6
+/-: 10.3

And for the 3 Spurs losses:

Games: 3
Minutes: 27.5
Shooting %: 41.7-35.0-25.0 (FG-3FG-FT)
Rebounds: 3.0
Assists: 2.7
Turnovers: 2.3
Steals: 2.0
Blocks: 0.7
Fouls: 2.7
Points: 12.7
+/-: -10.0

I know it's not a great sample, but it's the most you can get at this point in the playoffs.

As you can see, it seems as if he has been playing better in the losses than in the wins. People complain about his shooting, but he has shot better in the 3 losses than in the 14 wins. They also complain about his turnovers, but he has been turning it over at the same rate in the wins and the losses. So it seems those two stats don't strictly equate to Spurs losses.
For me, the most telling Manu stat between wins and losses is the assists and Assist/Turnover ratio.
And when you go to the Finals, in 2 Spurs wins Manu has 3 assists for every turnover and in the only loss he has 3 turnovers for every assist.
At this stage in Manu's career and with the players the Spurs have right now, we don't need Manu to light up the scoreboard. We need him to be a floor leader and make things easier for the rest of the team when he is on the court.
So far in the 3 games against Miami he hasn't been the guy taking the most shots from our team. He hasn't even been the third guy behind Timmy and Tony. Neal, Leonard and Green have all taken more shots than Manu so far against Miami and for good reasons (Manu has taken less than 10% of the Spurs shots in the series so far). Spurs are playing smart ball and are trying to maximize what each player is best at doing right now.

Manu is not going to score in bunches at this stage in his career. We do need him to improve his shooting and cut his turnovers as much as possible. But right now the most important thing Manu is going to give this team is his leadership on the floor.

Timmy, Tony and Manu are still the "big 3" although not the same "big 3" they were a few years ago.
Timmy is still the cornerstone and has been incredible this year with the way he turned back the clock.
Tony is doing what Manu did a few years ago, he scores in bunches, makes plays for his teammates and creates havoc in the opposing defenses making them "pick their poison".
Manu is still trying to do some of that (although not always with great success, e is loosing the battle with age so far) but his main role right now is "organizing the team" while on the floor. He is playing less and less for himself and more for his teammates. I think Manu is no longer capable of lighting up the score like he did in years past, but besides that, when your teammates are playing at a high level like Leonard, Green and Neal are doing right now, the smart choice is to help those guys get their shots and he is doing just that.
If Parker was able to play all 48 minutes every game right now you could argue about Manu's contributions at this stage not being that relevant, but right now Tony and Manu are the Spurs that can make that well-oiled machine called the Spurs offense be not only efficient but also difficult to predict and very hard to guard for the opposing defenses.

We Spurs fans have been blessed by the "big 3" we have in our team. The 3 of them are great players and very talented, but their biggest assets have always been their brain and their heart. And they still are, even when their basketball skills are not what they were some years ago.

pjm 06-13-13 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm (Post 1299309)
I'll keep going a little longer.

Sorry, it was A LOT longer :yikes :banghead :slap

Jose_TheGenius 06-13-13 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjm (Post 1299310)
Sorry, it was A LOT longer :yikes :banghead :slap

so Uwe's comments are good b/c he said it all along, but when i agree with Uwe, i'm wrong because i finally realized Manu is a shell of a shell of himself?

better late than never.

pjm 06-13-13 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius (Post 1299312)
so Uwe's comments are good b/c he said it all along, but when i agree with Uwe, i'm wrong because i finally realized Manu is a shell of a shell of himself?

better late than never.

As I expected you just see whatever you want to see and ignore all the rest of what is said.

I called Uwe on another thread for his "Manu-hating" when a thread was about 15 mins of poor basketball from the whole team and he replied as if all 15 minutes were all Manu's fault for two bad plays (a missed 3 and a turnover). I argued he was only looking at Manu's bad plays and was completely ignoring all the rest of the things Manu and the rest of the team were doing.

In this thread he just commented that Kawhi needs to get some of Manu's touches and gave good reasons about why that would benefit Kawhi's game.
I think it's not that much about "touches" but about having more plays where Kawhi's number is called (Manu could still be the one initiating the offense in some of them).

In this thread I'm calling you specifically because you were arguing the Manu's vs Kawhi's touches with a hating tone on Manu (see the part I bolded from your post in my first reply) instead of using "actual reasoning" as you call it.

exit7 06-13-13 06:26 PM

If you are going to use game 3 as further proof that Manu is struggling, then you might as well throw Tim and Tony under that bus as well. Yeah his numbers were not great yes, but neither were tim or tony's.

Manu had 6 assists in 23 minutes and only 2 turnovers. I'll take that from him in the limited minutes. The way we were playing we didnt need him to be that great.


As for Kawhi, he has been playing great. I still get a little nervous when he is leading the break. He's not a great passer, it seems like his decision making is a little slow and deliberate. He had the two fast breaks you can point to and say he made the right pass, but it just doesn't seem like it flows well for him, it looks like he slows down to make the pass. Maybe I'm alone in thinking that, but I would rather see him give the ball up, and be the finisher instead of the distributor.


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