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Old 05-22-13, 09:03 AM
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Flagrant foul, really?

Spurs' Manu Ginobili called for flagrant foul on Grizzlies' Tony Allen | The Point Forward - SI.com

Even after the review a flagrant foul?

If this is a fragrant foul than so is his trip of Tony Parker in game one, flopping would have been a better call.
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Old 05-22-13, 09:38 AM
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It was a crap call and a flop. But the bigger issue is why did Manu do it in the first place? What if he got the and 1 as well? Almost cost them the game and not to mention it was Manu's stupid turnover before that that put him in that situation. Should have let him have the layup, then you're still up by 2 instead of tied.
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Old 05-22-13, 09:39 AM
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Couldn't agree more. Allen should also get a call from the league for flopping as well. That being said, Manu should have let him go. We would be up 2 with the ball and 26 seconds left. His competitiveness took over and he made the hard, albeit clean, foul. What really gets me, is I can't believe after watching the play on replay, that the refs didn't reverse the call. Could have cost us the game/series. I'm one that also thinks this game may help us in the long run. It wasn't gonna be a cakewalk, and hopefully it will help us refocus going to Memphis. Give Pop something to get on them about.
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Old 05-22-13, 09:46 AM
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In the 2nd half we were getting no calls (while many could have been made) and Memohis was getting ALL of the calls tha they needed.... To climb back into a contest with a superior opponent. This considered, how could the ref even begin to NOT fall for an obvious flop.

To make that call.... He had to want to make that call. He had to want the game to go to OT. This cheating league will never change.
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Old 05-22-13, 09:47 AM
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It also was a horrible foul Bonner committed on Randolph with less than a minute to go for an and one. Fouled from behind when: A, he was out of position, and B, he had no chance of making a play. Another case of if he's that far out of position, let him score. That took it from 5 to 4. Even with Manys play the Grizz would have needed a 3 pointer to tie. It really became the impetus for them to have a shot towards the end.
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Old 05-22-13, 10:10 AM
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Spures made some stupid plays down the stretch:
Manu's TO and then the foul
Bonner's stupid and 1
Kwahi stripped from behind
Tony boarding in the corner and then chucking it to an open Grizz under the basket????
etc etc..

Man-o-man but the league should fine Allen for his drama/consider suspending him too and fire the crew who saw the replay (head 6" above the floor and they still called a flagrant foul?????).

I'll take the 2-0 and hope the team grew up from this!
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Old 05-22-13, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
In the 2nd half we were getting no calls (while many could have been made) and Memohis was getting ALL of the calls tha they needed.... To climb back into a contest with a superior opponent. This considered, how could the ref even begin to NOT fall for an obvious flop.

To make that call.... He had to want to make that call. He had to want the game to go to OT. This cheating league will never change.
+1

Grizz went to the stripe like 26 times to our 12 or so. Gimme a break
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Old 05-22-13, 10:26 AM
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Yes, there seemed to be a bit of diparity and being older than dirt, I thought/still think Manu's foul was just plain, good, old fashioned, playoff basketball. do not let the guy shoot the lay up.

Also agree people were gassed and legs were gone, which may have played a major part in the oh fer spell at the end. At least they all get a boat load of recovery time before game three, which for my money they absolutely need to win as they will not get more than one day between the rest of the games with travel in there as well.
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Old 05-22-13, 10:29 AM
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I'm obviously a HUGE Spurs fan....and I think that was a flagrant. If Manu instead chops down on Allen's arms or wraps him up to prevent the layup: That is a Playoff foul. Grabbing a guy's wrist as he is airborne is a risky play that could lead to serious injury, every single time. Unfortunately, our guy committed the WRONG play at the moment.

Flagrant-or-not aside, I think that Allen should get separately fined by the league for his holding-his-head drama act. That was utter BS. Kicking his feet and acting like he was concussed was a cheap ploy to sell the contact....and from my couch, it appeared to work vis-a-vis influencing the crappy crew they had working last night.
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Old 05-22-13, 11:12 AM
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Not a flagrant, a good foul. If it works the way it should Tony Allen needs to make 2 free throws, and at worst we are still up 2 with the ball.

Did anyone see him mouthing to the officials that he was dizzy? I was re-watching the game last night, and you see him tell the ref he was dizzy like 3 times. I don't get how these players think they are fooling anyone, when we have access to replay.
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Old 05-22-13, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exit7 View Post
Not a flagrant, a good foul. If it works the way it should Tony Allen needs to make 2 free throws, and at worst we are still up 2 with the ball.

Did anyone see him mouthing to the officials that he was dizzy? I was re-watching the game last night, and you see him tell the ref he was dizzy like 3 times. I don't get how these players think they are fooling anyone, when we have access to replay.
Allen saying he was "dizzy" had ZERO to do with the call. Manu grabbing the wrist of a "vulnerable" player was the deciding factor.

From the current NBA Rules & Regs:
Section IV—Flagrant Foul
a. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be
unnecessary
, a flagrant foul—penalty (1) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.

(Official Rules for NBA -- 2012-2013 season)
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Old 05-22-13, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteChocolateJr View Post
Allen saying he was "dizzy" had ZERO to do with the call. Manu grabbing the wrist of a "vulnerable" player was the deciding factor.

From the current NBA Rules & Regs:
Section IV—Flagrant Foul
a. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be
unnecessary, a flagrant foul—penalty (1) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.

(Official Rules for NBA -- 2012-2013 season)
So then any intentional foul should be considered Flagrant, maybe they need to call flagrant when a team is practicing hack-a-shaq? Manu grabbed his arm to prevent him making the shot, it was necessary so he wouldn't get a three point play. You're not going to convince me that was a flagrant foul, so lets agree to disagree.

The dizzy part was just an extra 2 cents, that was pure BS on Allen's part, I understand it had nothing to do with the call, I was just saying it was ridiculous.
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Old 05-22-13, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteChocolateJr View Post
Allen saying he was "dizzy" had ZERO to do with the call. Manu grabbing the wrist of a "vulnerable" player was the deciding factor.
I won't argue the call since it's up to the refs and they thought it warranted a flagrant call.
But if what you say is true and the "dizzy" part had ZERO to do with the call; why is it that Allen and so many other players in the league (including Spurs players) exaggerate/fake contact? Do you really think non of those things influence the decisions the refs make?
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Old 05-22-13, 01:07 PM
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First off great acting job by Tony Allen who already has a ring FYI. Second Manu should have let him go in for the layup. Third it was a good clean playoff foul. He went for his arms not his head and not his shoulders or neck region. Not flagrant just playoff basketball.
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Old 05-22-13, 01:29 PM
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I don't know about that...

If Manu had wrapped Allen up from behind: Good, clean PO foul.
If Manu had smacked the ball and caught Allen's arms: Good, clean PO foul.

Grabbing an airborne player's wrist is a recipe for injury. Yes, Allen exaggerated the impact and after-effect of the fall; however, that doesn't factor into whether the initial contact was "unnecessary." Remember Juwan Howard whacking Derek Anderson in '01? Separated shoulder...out for the POs because of one single "good hard foul" on an airborne--and therefore vulnerable--player. The special rules and special treatment of vulnerable players are in place to protect players from injury. Different story if Allen doesn't leave his feet; different story if Manu doesn't grab and pull Allen's wrist.
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Old 05-22-13, 01:42 PM
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Yes it was a flagrant foul because Allen was in the air when Manu pulled him down... but him acting like he'd been shot was not necessary, but he wanted to make sure Manu got the Flagrant foul call... that part was
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Old 05-22-13, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mombear View Post
Yes it was a flagrant foul because Allen was in the air when Manu pulled him down... but him acting like he'd been shot was not necessary, but he wanted to make sure Manu got the Flagrant foul call... that part was
...I expected to see Allen fined today for the rolling around, holding his head like he got shot BS. As soon as the refs announced the call, he popped to the FT line, sank two, and never touched his head again. Hmmm.
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Old 05-22-13, 01:50 PM
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TOTAL....
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Old 05-22-13, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteChocolateJr View Post
I don't know about that...

If Manu had wrapped Allen up from behind: Good, clean PO foul.
If Manu had smacked the ball and caught Allen's arms: Good, clean PO foul.

Grabbing an airborne player's wrist is a recipe for injury. Yes, Allen exaggerated the impact and after-effect of the fall; however, that doesn't factor into whether the initial contact was "unnecessary." Remember Juwan Howard whacking Derek Anderson in '01? Separated shoulder...out for the POs because of one single "good hard foul" on an airborne--and therefore vulnerable--player. The special rules and special treatment of vulnerable players are in place to protect players from injury. Different story if Allen doesn't leave his feet; different story if Manu doesn't grab and pull Allen's wrist.
Yes the Juwan Howard foul was dirty but he never went for the ball. DA could get really high and Howard was never an above the rim player even at Michigan. The Manu foul was more not grabbing his wrist but more of a follow through on the foul in my view. Kind of like when a boxer cuffs a punch on the back of the head and fighter falls down but it's not a knockout. As the broadcasters said the foul is on contact not the embellished fall to the ground but it's the NBA and they call it that way. How many times does a player make an awesome clean block with no contact but the guy falls down hard and then they call it. It's all about impact of the fall and not the initial contact. How about when people would hug Shaq going up? That should be flagrant since they are holding on and not making a play on the ball. Again the Juwan Howard play was a horrible example. Try again.
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Old 05-22-13, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uwe Blab View Post
It was a crap call and a flop. But the bigger issue is why did Manu do it in the first place? What if he got the and 1 as well? Almost cost them the game and not to mention it was Manu's stupid turnover before that that put him in that situation. Should have let him have the layup, then you're still up by 2 instead of tied.
I agree with you fully.
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Old 05-22-13, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by KAD View Post
Spures made some stupid plays down the stretch:
Manu's TO and then the foul
Bonner's stupid and 1
Kwahi stripped from behind
Tony boarding in the corner and then chucking it to an open Grizz under the basket????
etc etc..

Man-o-man but the league should fine Allen for his drama/consider suspending him too and fire the crew who saw the replay (head 6" above the floor and they still called a flagrant foul?????).

I'll take the 2-0 and hope the team grew up from this!
NO PLEASE DON'T!!!! He sucks in this series. He's too slow to guard Parker and he's wasted as a stopper on Green or Leonard.
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Old 05-22-13, 02:41 PM
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Allen may have been airborne, but if you watch the play in normal speed, it isn't but a split second after take off. Not like Manu had time to decide if he was airborne yet....

Because he held on to the wrist for a longer than necessary time, might make a case, but Manu himself has had worse and no flagrant call.
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Old 05-22-13, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteChocolateJr View Post
I don't know about that...

If Manu had wrapped Allen up from behind: Good, clean PO foul.
If Manu had smacked the ball and caught Allen's arms: Good, clean PO foul.

Grabbing an airborne player's wrist is a recipe for injury. Yes, Allen exaggerated the impact and after-effect of the fall; however, that doesn't factor into whether the initial contact was "unnecessary." Remember Juwan Howard whacking Derek Anderson in '01? Separated shoulder...out for the POs because of one single "good hard foul" on an airborne--and therefore vulnerable--player. The special rules and special treatment of vulnerable players are in place to protect players from injury. Different story if Allen doesn't leave his feet; different story if Manu doesn't grab and pull Allen's wrist.
Manu would have had to have a rocket up his ass to wrap up allen there..was not a flagrant...what made it a flagrant is the flop. Game 1 there was a foul commited by someone on manu that the analyst said ''if ginobili falls there, the refs call a flagrant''. It was as hard a foul, manu just didnt act. Allen just fooled the refs....bottom line... allen probably didnt even need to act though, refs doing whatever they could to keep grizz alive.
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Old 05-22-13, 03:19 PM
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Old 05-22-13, 03:51 PM
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So, part of the refs job going to the monitor is determining intent. I think it was painfully obvious there was no intent on Manus part. What makes no sense to me, is the foul Allen committed tripping TP in game one. For that matter, intentionally pushing Timmy to the floor after Timmy finally rebounded the seventh straight miss by the Grizz at point blank range towards the end of the first half. I see and understand the rule. But in my mind, what the great whistler blowers do, is see and determine intent. A foul by Manu it was. A silly foul at that given the situation. But not a flagrant. There as certainly a myriad of un Spur like plays toward the end of the fourth quarter. From KY getting ripped, to Timmy not securing a toss back save from TP under the hoop, to Bonners bad decision to give ZBo a bucket and one. It was a bit like game 4 vs the Warriors. We just happened to pull this one out. Again, gives Pop a lot of things to refocus the team on. If we can weather the storm to start out Sat, we could pull out a W.
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Old 05-22-13, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteChocolateJr View Post
...I expected to see Allen fined today for the rolling around, holding his head like he got shot BS. As soon as the refs announced the call, he popped to the FT line, sank two, and never touched his head again. Hmmm.
Can't wait to see Allen fined. LOL. Some freaking awesome fine acting...

Then soon as Allen got rewarded with the FT and the possession he was looking fine..

Refs made a mistake and Timmy said it right after the game that Allen sold it more than anything. Timmy said it was a weird play and RIGHTFULLY sticks with his teammate Manu and saying Manu did the right thing!!!

But Tim said the ruling says that if officials feel that Allen was in a vulnerable position and the play was excessive then it is a flagrant. Still it is what it is.

Even Manu after practice today said that it is probably what the officials said flagrant. But that should not stop Manu from playing hard playoff intensive D too... I am sure... And I agree with Manu it it is the PO and Memphis need to know that by now.

That earned Memphis to the FT and OT but thankfully Spurs woke up and got back in the game in OT which is the BEST REVENGE = Spurs win!!

Go Spurs Go
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Old 05-22-13, 07:26 PM
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Never hit his head and didn't know whether not to grab what side of his head. You tell me they didn't see that on the replay! Efffffiiinnn' terrible!
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Old 05-23-13, 08:02 AM
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Same damn foul happened on LeBron last night and it was just determined as a regular foul, WTF?!
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Old 05-23-13, 09:11 AM
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...yeah, that was crap. It's either a flagrant or it's not. Lack of consistent calls is the MOST aggravating part of watching the NBA. One time it's a no-call, next time it's a foul....and even a flagrant? Double you tee eff, Stern.
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Old 05-23-13, 10:07 AM
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So then any intentional foul should be considered Flagrant, maybe they need to call flagrant when a team is practicing hack-a-shaq? Manu grabbed his arm to prevent him making the shot, it was necessary so he wouldn't get a three point play. You're not going to convince me that was a flagrant foul, so lets agree to disagree.

The dizzy part was just an extra 2 cents, that was pure BS on Allen's part, I understand it had nothing to do with the call, I was just saying it was ridiculous.
exit7, I think you're missing the operative language in the regulatory section. The "flagrant/regular" distinction seems to turn on whether a given player was particularly susceptible to injury or otherwise vulnerable due to his position on or above the court. In other words: Refs look at whether a fouled player was standing still, jogging, running full-speed at the rim, or jumping in making the call. How a player landed or ended up, unfortunately, seems to enter the calculus as well for the refs to retroactively determine vulnerability. If a player is rolling around, apparently writhing in pain and seemingly injured, then he must have been vulnerable when he was fouled. Q.E.D.

In your example, if a player committed an intentional "Hack-a-Player" foul while the fouled Player was airborne, then it could correctly be whistled a flagrant. Will it necessarily be whistled as such? Who knows. Ref discretion still is an annoyingly inconsistent factor in implementing the rules and regs.

Whether you now argue that it ought not have been a flagrant is moot: It was a called flagrant. Flagrant foul carry additional penalties (including suspensions). Manu has those points now, unless the league rescinds and changes the call after the fact.
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  #31  
Old 05-23-13, 10:20 AM
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You should put on there "I look like a b*tch now, don't I?" Especially after LeBron took the same foul and got right back up
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Old 05-23-13, 10:22 AM
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I watched parts of last night's game.
You would expect the refs to be either straight or biased towards Miami.
I saw two plays under Indiana's basket, one where Augustin (I think it was him) grabed Bosh's arm and pulled him down to prevent the easy basket when Bosh had already left his feet. Regular foul was called.
On the other play, Mahinmi grabed LeBron's arm when he was in the air and pulled him down to prevent the easy basket. In this case there was even a "hard" fall on LeBron's part but not overacting to sell the foul. Regular foul was called.
In both cases you could see the intent of the defender was to go for the arm to prevent the layup, not to go for the ball.

If there was any conspiracy from the refs, I would have expected them to favour Miami with a flagrant in those calls, specially after what we saw in San Antonio.

So for me this only shows that
1) refs are really inconsistent (nothing new here)
2) Allen did sell that flagrant (a fine should be in place)
3) Refs bought what Allen sold them even after reviewing the play
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  #33  
Old 05-23-13, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteChocolateJr View Post
exit7, I think you're missing the operative language in the regulatory section. The "flagrant/regular" distinction seems to turn on whether a given player was particularly susceptible to injury or otherwise vulnerable due to his position on or above the court. In other words: Refs look at whether a fouled player was standing still, jogging, running full-speed at the rim, or jumping in making the call. How a player landed or ended up, unfortunately, seems to enter the calculus as well for the refs to retroactively determine vulnerability. If a player is rolling around, apparently writhing in pain and seemingly injured, then he must have been vulnerable when he was fouled. Q.E.D.

In your example, if a player committed an intentional "Hack-a-Player" foul while the fouled Player was airborne, then it could correctly be whistled a flagrant. Will it necessarily be whistled as such? Who knows. Ref discretion still is an annoyingly inconsistent factor in implementing the rules and regs.

Whether you now argue that it ought not have been a flagrant is moot: It was a called flagrant. Flagrant foul carry additional penalties (including suspensions). Manu has those points now, unless the league rescinds and changes the call after the fact.
So the fact it was called a flagrant is the bottom line and you're right.......whatever .......So Derek Fisher could catch a ball turn around shoot a normal motion shot and release it in or under .4 seconds? Impossible shot but on the floor it counted. Sorry just because the refs say the shot counted or the foul was flagrant means little to me just because that was the ref's call on the floor. What about Brent Barry being fouled on a 3 point shot in 08' by Fisher and the NBA admitted a foul should have been called????? Sometimes the refs get it wrong. They were wrong.
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  #34  
Old 05-23-13, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILLTHETHRILL View Post
So the fact it was called a flagrant is the bottom line and you're right.......whatever .......So Derek Fisher could catch a ball turn around shoot a normal motion shot and release it in or under .4 seconds? Impossible shot but on the floor it counted. Sorry just because the refs say the shot counted or the foul was flagrant means little to me just because that was the ref's call on the floor. What about Brent Barry being fouled on a 3 point shot in 08' by Fisher and the NBA admitted a foul should have been called????? Sometimes the refs get it wrong. They were wrong.

:applause
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  #35  
Old 05-23-13, 02:04 PM
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...lordy.

I've never defended an NBA ref in my life--and I certainly don't plan on starting any time soon. The inconsistent (if not outright shady) officiating is and has been the problem with the league for, hell....years.

NBA Refs Suck. That doesn't mean grabbing the arm of an airborne player isn't a dangerous, arguably flagrant play every time it occurs--whether or not it is called flagrant at the time it occurs.

...

The Fisher turn-and-shoot is a non sequitur that has nothing to do with Manu's foul and/or Allen's subsequent acting job. Hell, Fisher's shot was a catalyst for a couple of MAJOR changes in the NBA, namely: 1) Full league implementation of red light indicators above the stanchion; and, 2) Modified "Trent Tucker Rule" time frames required for "catch-turn-shoot," "catch-shoot" and "tip" scenarios. Yes, we got jobbed then. NBA refs suck now, and they sucked then. Putting up with the sh*tty-at-best officiating is part and parcel to being the diehard fans that we are.
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  #36  
Old 05-23-13, 05:15 PM
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It was an F-1 and a stupid foul to boot. Watching the game in real time it was an easy call.
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  #37  
Old 05-23-13, 05:30 PM
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easily a flagrant, of f-1 variety.
good call.

at the same time, he should get fined for the ridiculousness that occurred after he hit the floor flopping around like he was having a seizure. lol, i was rofl

but to purely respond to the title of the the thread:
"Flagrant foul, really?" --> yeah, really. easy call. f-1
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  #38  
Old 05-23-13, 05:34 PM
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Everyone has it wrong!

I don't care about the flagrant call, it was a good hard playoff foul. Call it flagrant if you want!

The real issue is will any referee in the NBA ever give him the benefit of the doubt ever again. This really is disrespecting the referees and they are the ones who should be pissed! If I'm a referee he never gets another call for the rest of his career! I have visions of the refs motioning for him to get up and stop complaining, forever!

I can dream right!
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  #39  
Old 05-23-13, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spursfan9 View Post
easily a flagrant, of f-1 variety.
good call.

at the same time, he should get fined for the ridiculousness that occurred after he hit the floor flopping around like he was having a seizure. lol, i was rofl

but to purely respond to the title of the the thread:
"Flagrant foul, really?" --> yeah, really. easy call. f-1
That's about right.
Manu was flying past Allen during the foul. He not only grabbed him, but pulled an airborne Allen. If the jerseys were reversed, there'd be calls for a 2 game suspension of Allen for pulling Manu to the ground.

I'm slightly surprised that there hasn't been any word from the NBA on the obvious flop/acting. Even if it was the first warning, it should have been something. Just a league recognition that that particular play falls into the anti-flopping jurisdiction.
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  #40  
Old 05-23-13, 08:40 PM
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  #41  
Old 05-24-13, 05:13 PM
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The League just slapped the $5000 flopping fine on Allen as it was determined his head never hit the ground.
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  #42  
Old 05-24-13, 08:07 PM
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so, if this "flagrant 2" happend to cost spurs the game, the series and arguably the last chance at championship... thats all? a slap?

oh well
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  #43  
Old 05-25-13, 10:09 AM
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I believe it was a flagrant 1, flagrant 2 is an automatic ejection and a one game suspension. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm okay with flagrant 1!
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  #44  
Old 05-25-13, 01:16 PM
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The point you seem to be making is that Lebron is so strong he was not susceptible to injury. put another way, Allen is not as strong as Lebron. Going into that even further, I am still thinking Manu held onto his arm a liitle longer than neccesary, actually prevent injury as he landed. You are taught to send the guy to the foul line in lieu of a lay up. Beyond that to make sure the shooter does not make the lay up and end up with an "and one."
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