For all the die hard Tiago fans

[Jose_TheGenius]

he's not showing anything to pick him over any guy who can post up consistently. he's playing with no one who'll demand touches and he doesn't even look to post up.

this game is all about our guards, nothing special from Splitter and if the offense is forced to slow down, this is the type of playoff type of play we're going to be playing: living and dying by the 3.

[MRJONESIII]

Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius

he's not showing anything to pick him over any guy who can post up consistently. he's playing with no one who'll demand touches and he doesn't even look to post up.

this game is all about our guards, nothing special from Splitter and if the offense is forced to slow down, this is the type of playoff type of play we're going to be playing: living and dying by the 3.

BINGO AMIGO!

[Kager]

Jose you have some vendetta against Splitter for some unknown reason, maybe you are a Jefferson fan boy that bad that you want to rubbish Tiago till AJ arrives as your white knight I don't get it like Skinny Jeans.

Splitter is not required to be a scoring leader, at best he is expected to be 5th or 6th leading scorer in the team. You talk about himm looking to post up but have you not watched the games?

This is not rec league it is not as simple as the big man runs down the court and establishes position, Pop has requirements of Tiago as the secondary big man on offence to run his routs to create the spacing our offence thrives on.

Everytime down court he runs down cuts back to the top of the key and then takes the ball passes on while creating some room for the ball handler. Then he goes low until called up to screen and roll where he will either catch it on the way to the hoop and score or he will create the defensive missmatches that create scrambling from the defence and either a shooter or cutter will open up for a basket.

If he went to the block and started calling for the ball while the guards struggled to get free up the top then Pop would yank him and bring on Bonner to instead to the screen and pop.

If the above doesn't work then he is posting up as the plan B and is in double figures scoring with the leading FG % in the NBA so he must be hitting some of his post work to go with rolls.

You may think that means we live and die by the 3 but it doesn't, it means we live and die by our number 1 scoring option TP either slashing for the score or dish to the vacant man or pulling up for that reliable jumper he now has.

Yes we shoot a lot of threes but if they aren't working we use that movement to free up TD, Manu, Green, Leonard or Neal for mid range, cut or inside.

And if none of that is working because TP can't create then we go from 2 - 0 to 2 - 4 in the playoffs pretty quickly, but I am on the side of the equation that believes the Thunder played their Championship series to beat us (with Ibaka looking like an ofensive stud) rather than we had the wrong system.

You bring in Al to clog up the block alongside of Timmy then you throw away the system that allows us to still win with out TD to cover for the 1 or 2 games we struggle.

I would rather go with what got us 20 straight wins rather than planning for the couple of losses that will not always run together like they did, the players are 1 year better and better versed in the system, one that is keeping us in the game with the Bulls without 4 of our best.

So for all your trolling of Tiago it comes down to him doing what is required of him by his coach rather than what is required by you, Legendary coach rather than a faceless fan...

[Jose_TheGenius]

Originally Posted by Kager

Jose you have some vendetta against Splitter for some unknown reason, maybe you are a Jefferson fan boy that bad that you want to rubbish Tiago till AJ arrives as your white knight I don't get it like Skinny Jeans.

apparently you're just a Splitter fan over looking at the actual game. this game should have been Tiago showing what he can do, especially if you Tiago sympathizers want to keep him for a bloated contract. you want to pay a guy $8-12 million possibly to set picks for shooters like Gary Neal and not back down guys?

i was one of the few guys who pulled for Splitter and knew he'd improve, but wanting a better player for him isn't anything unrealistic.

so please, go on your "legendary coach", "in Pop we trust", and whatever else slogans to bail out not understanding the game of basketball. i do think Pop is a great coach, but this guy had Bonner starting at some point, Roger Mason playing PG, and Richard Jefferson playing PF. "if you think that means living and dying by the 3", yes it does because we don't have an inside presence, all we have when the game is slowed down is jumpers, that's called Coaching 101.

does he have brain farts? of course he does. is he perfect like you want to make him out to be? of course he's not. by the way, i'm not a faceless fan. i have my mug all around, not some Tim Duncan picture with tatts to hide behind.

[Mombear]

Now, now boys... play nice.

[esparzar1]

Off subject, but how bout my homie KLEO!!!!! Dude was ballin tonight!!!!!

[Spurd_On]

Great game from Splitter.

[MRJONESIII]

Well there is only 10 days left to see if Spurs pull of a trade no one expects them to do. If we stand pat it will be interesting like the last few years... Streamroll through the regular season only to get bounced out of the playoffs. I don't know about the rest of you but my nerves can't take too many more of these close calls. But do they take a chance with Tiago and hope he doesn't crumble in the plaids playoffs like Bonner and a few others have in recent years?

Let's just hope they don't want Splitter and we keep both guys, and whoever performs I the playoffs... We keep. Just hate to lose our grittiest guy, Jackson. But you have to give something to get something!

[Kager]

You make huge sweeping statements Jose based on not much, Splitter just showed 16 pts on 5 of 7 shots working within what I described above where first option was screen and roll and then he went to the post as TD wasn't there as first post option.

As splitter is making about $3.5 mill a year I am happy with that as Boozer got 14 points making $15 mill.... Now when we look to next year and the contract he might ask for Asik just got $25 mill over 3 years so as their stats are very similar (even with 10 less minutes)if we pay Tiago that I and most should be happy as 7 footers get paid even if they are barely coordinated.

He doesnt just set picks he also scores in double figures in 23 min at the highest FG % in the NBA, again worth paying for.

You may feel your mug is all over here but this is still just an internet forum so the coach that will go in the HOF does get more credit for knowing what he is talking about rather than yourself.... unless you reveal that you are in a real life NBA management position of some type then you are still faceless compared to the players and coaches you are downgrading.

Talking about a coach doesn't influence whether I know ball or not, neither does Gansta David, I talked through how I thought the system worked and how Splitter worked within that system. Instead of breaking down where I got it wrong you threw out two players who are no longer here and a catch cry you heard from a commentator and saying we have no inside presence.

When TD is on the floor he is the inside presence, and when he is not resting he is doing it well, when he is not Splitter takes more responsibility in the post where even today the Bulls double teamed him and he got assists out of that double team a couple of times. Now if Al was here for todays game instead (which again it would be both rather than instead)then he may have scored more in the post but we may not have got as many open looks to go 50% from three with a predictable one side offence... and as Tiago already scored 16 points on 5 of 7 we did not miss out.

As you like to focus on parts of a post rather than responding to all I detail focus on the fact that:
- Pop is not perfect but he has put in place a system that got 20 straight wins last year and even a win today against a good team without 4 key players because the system works if the players stick to it rather than taking instructions from the internet.
- Tiago did stand up today as you want, he got 16 points on 5 of 7 and still created the space Pop wants while collecting $3.5 mill this year one of the cheapest starting centers in the NBA
- Al is a better scorer at this point but at what cost to the rest of the points needed above his 24th in the league 17 points per game? We are just no longer an inside out team as much as you seem to want us to return to that Coach 101.

You are a genius so maybe detail how you think the offence should work around Jefferson, an undersized big man who is good for 5th best inside offensive presence at 17 points.

[Jose_TheGenius]

Originally Posted by Kager

You make huge sweeping statements Jose based on not much, Splitter just showed 16 pts on 5 of 7 shots working within what I described above where first option was screen and roll and then he went to the post as TD wasn't there as first post option.

that's not even close to being a post presence. the only decent play he had going to the post was when he couldn't even post up the soft Carlos Boozer and Splitter actually bounced off of him for the shot. that's not being a post presence. he made his free throws, so that's a plus.

doing a pick and roll isn't considered being an "inside presence". TD in his prime is an inside presence because he caught the ball in the paint and created. Splitter using a pick and roll and playing off another player does not make him an inside presence. it makes him a player who needs to roll to the basket to get his shot, but that doesn't classify anything close to that. Amare Stoudemire was never known as an inside presence when he'd pick and roll with Nash and neither is Splitter.

Al Jefferson is 6'10", when is that considered as undersized? he can back down guys consistently and shoot over them while making a pass to shooters once there's a double team. there's no "detail" to that, it's vintage Spurs offense.

you need to detail how Splitter will do when team's decide to stack the paint like OKC did or keep up with shooters and kill the pick and roll. how's Splitter going to man the offense? he's playing well for $3.5 million but he won't be worth that much if he keeps playing like this consistently. also remember, the Bulls rely on Derrick Rose. Boozer is soft and can't create his own consistently, Noah can't create, and Taj Gibson is a hustle player. Splitter had role players to play against without a superstar, if he's as good as advertised on here he should have taken more shots and manned the offense better. i seriously doubt Pop's offense was "have Neal dribble the ball in transition and jack up shots". he made them, but that's because he's so one dimensional. put Al Jefferson with this team tonight and no Big 3 and it would've been an inside out game, something we'll need in the playoffs if we want to win the title.

check out Tiago's stats to know how the pick and roll is the only way he can score:

he's shooting 65% (194-298) in the restricted area, he's shooting 26% from the paint in the non-restricted area. if he was really backing down, he'd have shots in the paint as a whole in a balanced way. there's no way with Tiago's lack of strength can he backs down guys all way under the basket.

Jefferson is shooting 64% in the restricted area, 45% in the paint (non-RA) and 40% in mid range.

Splitter is too one dimensional and if you believe Gregg Popovich is wanting Splitter just to play in this system, then you're forgetting the past few times where Pop went with set up ball and picked Dice/Diaw over Blair. the reason Pop says the Spurs need to run is because we don't have an inside presence backing down. if we did, we'd mix it up. he's playing Splitter to the best of his own abilities to help the team, not because he purely wants Tiago to play in that way.

[Rzarector7]

Jose is one of Splitters biggest fans, he doesn't have anything against Tiago! He called for him to play years ago and talks highly about him alot! What would he have against Tiago? I believe you have Jose a little confused, he is one of his biggest fans infact.

BTW I agree on if you can get Al for him an a few others do it, that will IMO improve the team later from the inside out game! We can't rely on threes to win a title, that doesn't work and never will! It is proven and we proved it a few years ourselves! If you can get Jefferson do it! If it is the right price meaning not too much given up PULL IT! If not we have a deep team and will roll with what we got.

I worry though about the Chemistry thing here JOSER, this team has a great chemistry it seems and is winning alot like last year late! If they make the trade does it fall appart like RJ coming here when that seemed logical then? Double edged sword there man.

[Jose_TheGenius]

Originally Posted by Rzarector7

Jose is one of Splitters biggest fans, he doesn't have anything against Tiago! He called for him to play years ago and talks highly about him alot! What would he have against Tiago? I believe you have Jose a little confused, he is one of his biggest fans infact.

i do like Splitter, it's just that i don't think (when we're forced to slow down the O) he can be productive. we need someone who can back down guys and not depend on TP or Manu for offense.

[Rzarector7]

Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius

i do like Splitter, it's just that i don't think (when we're forced to slow down the O) he can be productive. we need someone who can back down guys and not depend on TP or Manu for offense.

Will 02-08 Tim do????????????
I know I know he is not around anymore but wishful thinking. Tim can still do alot though, so you think we trade for Al Jefferson who is not that good on D and we get alot better? I mean his O game is alot better than Splitters but do they make a move?

[MRJONESIII]

Just like Brent Barry said, "plug anyone in, and the system never changes". We are going to run our sets and we are going to help each other on defense.... That's what the Spurs always do. Plus I think Jefferson gets some of TD's 4 down pla differentys. Also when Duncan needs rest or is out and teams like OKC pack the paint and close out on our the point shooters, what do we do? We're going to need a Duncan like post threat to collapse and double team down low to free up our shooters for easier shots. Sorry Tiago doesn't give us that. He gives us a good dimension for bigs that don't play the pick and roll well, but with Ibaka and Perkins, well could definitively us Big Al.

[SleepyAdamII]

If al is available take him, if not keep Tiago ... No more no less

[MichaelWi101]

Oh Jose, Jose, Jose you trouble maker you Tiago is doing exactly what the Spurs want and demand of him. You know that if he started trying to do too much, Pop would plop his butt on the bench and he wouldn't see playing time until the next season.

When you say "you're forgetting the past few times where Pop went with set up ball and picked Dice/Diaw over Blair." the key word there is few, those times are getting fewer and further between.

The Spurs offensive system doesn't require or need a guy who can simply pounds the ball on the floor while he backs down to within a foot of the hoop, because that causes the offense to come to a screeching halt.

Would it be nice if he were the second coming of David Robinson or Wilt? Sure, if this were 15 years ago. Everyone admits, he's a better passer, he adds more to the Spurs overall play than Diaw, Bonner or Blair, because if he didn't he wouldn't be starting and playing as many minutes as he does.

If you want to bring Jefferson in, then do it to replace Tim because that's going to be the biggest hole to fill in the near future.

[Uwe Blab]

This team is still missing something. I still don't think they can beat OKC or Miami in a 7 game series. Even the Clippers give me some doubts. Because when it comes down to it, if you stop Parker, you stop the Spurs. Now the Spurs hung tough last year against OKC. But they had no ability to get the easy score in the paint when it's crunch time and their guards can't penetrate or score. That's where a Jefferson would come in handy.

[Money4Nothing]

Splitter cannot reliably post up defenders and score 1 on 1. He's got a nice reverse layup but otherwise his post game is very underdeveloped.

He is an above average roll scorer off the pick, and at least average as passing out of the post position. He also is pretty decent at ball protection and not fouling.

But seriously, he's nothing special. He is not a shot blocking presence, not a great rebounder, and can't do anything that most of the other PFs and Centers in the league can't do. The nice thing is that he's not overpayed for what he brings, which most of those other guys are.

He's a good role player, and a good backup to Duncan. But he cannot hang with the better starting big men in the league like Ibaka, Griffin, Chandler, Randolf, and he never will.

Uwe is Spot On, this team is missing what they need to beat OKC or Miami. As awesome as Parker has been, and as good as the Spurs can be against 90% of the league....San Antonio needs dominating performances from Manu and Duncan to be able to deliver as the absolute best team in the NBA. I just doubt that those guys have enough in the tank to deliver those kind of performances, to counter the Superstars on the other side of the ball that Miami and OKC will bring to the table.

(BTW I don't think Jefferson is the answer either). The Spurs are not a role-player away from being a champion, they are a superstar away from being a champion. I only hope that Manu and Duncan can have some flashback-style performances in the playoffs. Sure we can beat up on the undisciplined teams in the league during the regular season, but Conference Finals and NBA Finals are not ever remotely comparable to what we are doing now.

$

[alh1020]

Originally Posted by Uwe Blab

This team is still missing something.....

Even though we’re racking up the wins, I feel it to. It’s OK to play a different team night after night during the regular season, but when you get into a seven game set against one team night after night in the playoffs, they’ll make adjustments and that’s one of the reasons we lost to OKC.

Just over our last 3 games, we’ve been badly outrebounded by the opponent, particularly offensive rebounds. And two of the last three we won quite handedly. I feel we need another big who can just hit the boards and regularly. Doesn’t have to be a 7 footer or scoring presence, just give us our scoring opportunities and take them away from our opponents. And if we can keep Splitter in the process, it would be an added plus because he adds to the chemistry of the team already mentioned. IMHO.

[Spurd_On]

Originally Posted by Money4Nothing

Splitter cannot reliably post up defenders and score 1 on 1. He's got a nice reverse layup but otherwise his post game is very underdeveloped.

He is an above average roll scorer off the pick, and at least average as passing out of the post position. He also is pretty decent at ball protection and not fouling.

But seriously, he's nothing special. He is not a shot blocking presence, not a great rebounder, and can't do anything that most of the other PFs and Centers in the league can't do. The nice thing is that he's not overpayed for what he brings, which most of those other guys are.

He's a good role player, and a good backup to Duncan. But he cannot hang with the better starting big men in the league like Ibaka, Griffin, Chandler, Randolf, and he never will.

Uwe is Spot On, this team is missing what they need to beat OKC or Miami. As awesome as Parker has been, and as good as the Spurs can be against 90% of the league....San Antonio needs dominating performances from Manu and Duncan to be able to deliver as the absolute best team in the NBA. I just doubt that those guys have enough in the tank to deliver those kind of performances, to counter the Superstars on the other side of the ball that Miami and OKC will bring to the table.

(BTW I don't think Jefferson is the answer either). The Spurs are not a role-player away from being a champion, they are a superstar away from being a champion. I only hope that Manu and Duncan can have some flashback-style performances in the playoffs. Sure we can beat up on the undisciplined teams in the league during the regular season, but Conference Finals and NBA Finals are not ever remotely comparable to what we are doing now.

$

That's the way I've approached the entire season and enjoy what they can do with what they have. I'm not sure why Splitter is being singled out in the title of the thread. I'm still a big Splitter fan. Sure, the Spurs are better than they were last year because they have played an entire season together but the same can be said for any team that is a contender. I think that it is already universally accepted that the Spurs are not a title contender without a post presence miracle occurring. I'm not holding my breath for that miracle to happen in the next 10 days, rather I just continue to root for and enjoy the Spurs as an underdog contender and that includes Splitter.

[Kager]

Time differences stop good discussions as I have come back on and we have all moved on.... except to say our offence is what it is for this years run, if we plug in Al or even Josh Smith then they will not be doing what they are used to. It will be some patchwork version that may work really well as they are both borderline All Stars, or they may not make as much difference.

Either way I remain happy as a "Die Hard Fan" of the fact that Splitter with whatever limitation you see is doing what is required of him and so is worth what we are currently paying.

[Jose_TheGenius]

Originally Posted by MichaelWi101

Oh Jose, Jose, Jose you trouble maker you Tiago is doing exactly what the Spurs want and demand of him. You know that if he started trying to do too much, Pop would plop his butt on the bench and he wouldn't see playing time until the next season.

so Pop told Splitter "all you're going to do is pick and roll"?

that's nonsense. Pop is plugging in Splitter to play the best he can. the Spurs would love Splitter to develop an inside game, but he's not that type of player especially if he bounces off the defender when he's posting up. if you think Pop wouldn't like consistent post up from Splitter, then you apparently don't remember when we ran in the beginning of the year then Pop went with 4 Downs against Memphis in the playoffs or against the Thunder when they stopped the Spurs from running last year.

it's just common sense. if you have bigs, you hope they can post up first in the paint then anything else second. we were running with Blair and he was playing a pick and roll style because that's the only way he could play not because Pop wanted him to play like that. Splitter is playing Blair's game, that's why he's getting minutes.

Originally Posted by Spurd_On

I'm not sure why Splitter is being singled out in the title of the thread.

there's a Splitter Pack here who wants to re-sign him for whatever he wants and "Tiago isn't going anywhere" talk to go with it. that talk is for someone who's either dominant or can catch the attention of the defense by his individual game. Tiago is showing nothing like that.

[Kager]

The next question is Jose what money are you willing to spend on Splitter (is it Asik money 3 yr $25 like I mentioned) or what is your alternative?

Issues with getting an alternative big man is they are all going to be over paid in the free agant market and also we are not exactly a free agent magnet.

Does that mean you are unhappy until we can trade for an alternative.

For me $7.5 mill per year is ok for what Splitter produces, with out going over old ground, and I really cant see getting the equivelant or better for any cheaper unless we go back into the Euro farm the Spurs have and get another on a rookie contract.

[MichaelWi101]

Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius

so Pop told Splitter "all you're going to do is pick and roll"?

that's nonsense. Pop is plugging in Splitter to play the best he can. the Spurs would love Splitter to develop an inside game, .

Jose, your rants against Splitter are getting tired and monotonous, from the EN on January 25, 2013 "What he can do – better than almost any other big in the league – is attack the basket via screen/rolls. Per Synergy Sports, Splitter scores 1.34 points per play in such instances, fourth-best in the NBA. He also shoots 72.4 percent on those plays, 22 percentage points better than Duncan and eight points better than the league average for all shots at the rim. It’s a specialized skill, to be sure. But with initiators like Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili and a fleet of quality outside shooters to spread the court — eight Spurs shoot better than the league average on 3s — it suits his team perfectly."


Now you may not like his game, but frankly who cares? He's in the lineup because he gives the Spurs much, much, much more than Bonner, Diaw or Blair


"Last but certainly not least, Splitter also plays surprisingly solid defense according to the numbers compiled by Synergy. Even better than Duncan in some spots, in fact, including post-ups (0.62 points per play, 12th) and pick-and-rolls (0.97 ppp, 25th). With Duncan anchoring the defense as well as he has in years, the tandem would seem to be an ideal matchup for bigger teams like Memphis and the Lakers."


For whatever reason you want him either gone or out of the lineup so the Spurs can chase the elusive dream 'big'. Now if one of the upcoming crop of free agent centers decide they want to come to SA, ok, but it's not going to happen.



He is doing EXACTLY what Pop wants of him and yes he will get paid, so get over it.

[goodtexan]

You're talking about the Chicago game? They didn't live and die by the three. They had a variety of pull up shots. Great mid range games were on display. Tiago was efficient and did his job. I don't know if Pop wanted him to post up more. If Pop wanted it and Tiago didnto do it, he would have sat. If Pop didn't want it and Tiago posted up anyway, he would have sat.

It was a nice game. Tiago needed more help inside but Bonner, Diaw and Blair couldn't provide it. Tiago was one on three in the lane.

[Spurd_On]

Originally Posted by goodtexan

You're talking about the Chicago game? They didn't live and die by the three. They had a variety of pull up shots. Great mid range games were on display. Tiago was efficient and did his job. I don't know if Pop wanted him to post up more. If Pop wanted it and Tiago didnto do it, he would have sat. If Pop didn't want it and Tiago posted up anyway, he would have sat.

It was a nice game. Tiago needed more help inside but Bonner, Diaw and Blair couldn't provide it. Tiago was one on three in the lane.

I agree with everything in you post with the exception of Diaw. Diaw did what Diaw is capable of doing but Bonner and Blair were no shows. Diaw seldom, if ever, rebounds but does other valuable things.

[td4mvp2k]

Originally Posted by Kager

For me $7.5 mill per year is ok for what Splitter produces, with out going over old ground, and I really cant see getting the equivelant or better for any cheaper unless we go back into the Euro farm the Spurs have and get another on a rookie contract.

What I think.

Originally Posted by MichaelWi101

Now you may not like his game, but frankly who cares? He's in the lineup because he gives the Spurs much, much, much more than Bonner, Diaw or Blair

He is doing EXACTLY what Pop wants of him and yes he will get paid, so get over it.

Ya thats the BL.

Originally Posted by goodtexan

You're talking about the Chicago game? It was a nice game. Tiago needed more help inside but Bonner, Diaw and Blair couldn't provide it. Tiago was one on three in the lane.

+1

[Uwe Blab]

I think this has turned into a "Defending Tiago Because Someone Said He Sucks" thread. I think Tiago is playing great. I think Jefferson is much better than Tiago. I recall seeing Jefferson do well in pick and rolls, he has a good midrange jumper, and he is good in the post. Defensively, he rebounds more and has more blocked shots, which automatically makes him a better defender.

So in summation, Tiago doesn't suck, Jefferson is better, if Utah wants to do the trade for some strange reason, you do it. But I don't think they will, so this is all probably moot.

[tuncaboylu]

Utah is not going to keep Al-Jeff this summer since they have Millsap- Favor and Kanter. Al-Jaff has an expiring contract and he's going anywhere who pays him. And Utah won't have more than trade exception if a sign&trade happens.

So Utah is trying to get some guys and draft picks by sending him this trade deadline. They're going to need some guys wo can contribute too, since they're in play-off race.

Now we're a fine canddate to get him since we've an expiring S-Jax contract and some back-court players (like Neal and Patty Mills) who can help Utah immediately. If they can't find a better offer, they may choose our package.

[JuanCaca]

im not that happy with the idea of trade the only natural SF other than kawhi... people says "hey green can play SF, manu can..." but that was the wear that sidelined both when kawhi and sjax was out... can you imagine only ONE (second year 21yo) SF against the top contenders who happends to have the 1 and 2 options for league MVP (lebron, durant)... the clippers had caron butler mat barnes and even grant hill to throw at kawhi... we REALLY need more than one real SF... you can say "ohh spurs defense is help defense" ...but anyway... this constant helping can lead to injury to our top (but fragile) SG or our best defender at SG... and that already happened..

sjax is slow, and having not so good numbers, but has the veteran savy and the "huevos" to go down swinging.. and i believe he still has some sparks from the past, no one can take him from granted and forget defend him... who in D league, free agency, etc, can replace him this year if traded?

[b1gdon]

Originally Posted by JuanCaca

im not that happy with the idea of trade the only natural SF other than kawhi... people says "hey green can play SF, manu can..." but that was the wear that sidelined both when kawhi and sjax was out... can you imagine only ONE (second year 21yo) SF against the top contenders who happends to have the 1 and 2 options for league MVP (lebron, durant)... the clippers had caron butler mat barnes and even grant hill to throw at kawhi... we REALLY need more than one real SF... you can say "ohh spurs defense is help defense" ...but anyway... this constant helping can lead to injury to our top (but fragile) SG or our best defender at SG... and that already happened..

sjax is slow, and having not so good numbers, but has the veteran savy and the "huevos" to go down swinging.. and i believe he still has some sparks from the past, no one can take him from granted and forget defend him... who in D league, free agency, etc, can replace him this year if traded?

This is why I think Splitter should be included in a Jefferson trade...to bring back a SF replacement either from Utah or a 3rd or 4th team. Holding his restricted rights should have some value for the off season as a team can go over cap to re-sign him. As has been stated by others, I am impressed with Splitter's development and if we can't bring in another big man I won't be too disappointed, but watching the Spurs offense shut down in the loss to OKC in the playoffs last year as they cut off passing lanes and contested the 3 has burned into my memory. Maybe Green and Leonard have been hardened enough by the experience to step up and hit their shots. Maybe Splitter has developed enough not to get yanked by Pop after folding. If the Spurs don't make a move then that is what we will have to hope for.

[JuanCaca]

problem is... any improvement made by tiago, is easily overshadowed by the progress made by ibaka, who now has reliable jumper, and even sinking 3pts! dang!!!...

and to make worse; durant and wesbrook are still making advance, they are arguably better than last year...

[TodTango]

Originally Posted by JuanCaca

problem is... any improvement made by tiago, is easily overshadowed by the progress made by ibaka, who now has reliable jumper, and even sinking 3pts! dang!!!...

and to make worse; durant and wesbrook are still making advance, they are arguably better than last year...

No...they are the same. And for Westbrook, OKC no longer has a safety valve they had when they had James Harden.

Since you guys didn't answer in the other thread:

Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius

you said it was about balance right? that's balance. Al Jefferson wouldn't get the rock every possession but it would force the defense to switch schemes about every other play (i.e. old Spurs offense going with a Pick and Roll then a 4 Down then rotating that with Manu/TP)

Again, when would this be implemented. There was no issue with offense against OKC, the issue was D. So we fix the D by fixing the not broke O? The team relied too much on the 3 last season but they lost because Harden could not be stopped despite Westbrook's issues.

the only time there's a "black hole" in basketball terms is a guy who gets the ball and jacks up a shot when he touches the rock. Al Jefferson isn't that, not even close. if he's a black hole on offense, then you're saying Duncan was a black hole on offense the whole time before we ran?

Quite the opposite. Unlike Jefferson, the offense flowed through the post and Tim knows every play and every option and the team had built the kind of cohesion that builds over time. Every player the Spurs bring in over the trade deadline is given a condensed version of the playbook when they arrive. In essence, with good avanced scouting, that makes defending that player EASIER. Unlike Tim who knows the whole playbook. Pop's playbook is the league's most extensive and just going to the post isn't the whole story.

Al Jefferson plays a vintage TD post up game and that's what we need to compliment our running scheme. JuanCaca's answer below is the reason why it's needed or else hope we don't see OKC or Miami in the playoffs.

OKC's Thabo or MIA's Lebron on TP = we're screwed if we don't have anyone else who can contribute. how would you counter that? a down low presence and TD can't do that anymore.

Lebron cannot cover Parker. He will in certain situations but he won't for entire games the same way he wouldn't for Chris Paul. You have to expend so much energy guarding the other team's best player plus run the offense and attack the glass. MIA needs that from LBJ.
OKC has the luxury of Thabo not having any of those responsibilities.But with Harden gone, I'm in the camp that Westbrook's me first mentality is going to give the Spurs a better chance plus an improved Leonard & Splitter. I don't advocate fixing the defense by getting a player whose lone skill set upsets the balance and chemistry of an already strong team. If Duncan's knee wasn't saved by the VI Flaming Eagle Knee Brace, then bringing Al would be a feasible scenario. Lucky that Tim will be back but assuming that Tim retires earlier than we thought, I just don't see Jefferson as the post replacement of the future deserving of Superstar dollars.

I am encouraged by the improvement in KL's offensive skills and feel that Pop will use that as a change of pace attack sequence. He's the near future and with TP still gives us a formidable line up. No one stays status quo but the Spurs way with fiscal responsibility and the building of corporate knowlege is one I have no issue at all with backing. If they choose Jefferson it will be for something that I do not see. I'm not saying I'm right or you're right. I'm just saying I've laid our arguments to support my hypothesis.

Feel free to disagree. It's an interesting discussion and I await the feedback.

[spursfan9]

ever since the Richard Jokerson fiasco i worry about trades ! hehe.

[TodTango]

Originally Posted by Uwe Blab

I think this has turned into a "Defending Tiago Because Someone Said He Sucks" thread. I think Tiago is playing great. I think Jefferson is much better than Tiago. I recall seeing Jefferson do well in pick and rolls, he has a good midrange jumper, and he is good in the post. Defensively, he rebounds more and has more blocked shots, which automatically makes him a better defender.

Jefferson doesn't do well in Pick and Roll. His strength is in his back to the basket game. How is it that you can just give it an "eye test" but not have it backed up with any sort of statistical significance? I recall that Jeffeson is slow and not as strong defensively.

So in summation, Tiago doesn't suck, Jefferson is better, if Utah wants to do the trade for some strange reason, you do it. But I don't think they will, so this is all probably moot.

Again, how does one quantify who is better?
NBA.com Advanced Stats: Player vs. Player - Advanced basketball statistics for NBA players and teams on NBA.com

When you look at the stats-Splitter shoots better, his plus minus scores are better, he gets to the FT Line more which means he gets a chance to score PLUS puts fouls on opposing players.

[katyspursfan]

Originally Posted by TodTango

Again, how does one quantify who is better?

Wait until Jose adds his input.

Then you'll know.

It's the other guy

[Kager]

Tod's right Al may benifit another team who does more iso ball and he may currently be better in the post, but Splitter does what is required in our system and has (on this forum at least) an underated post game.... for about half the price.

But to sound glitchy here Utah will not trade Jefferson for Tiago, they don't want another big man they want guard/shooting help.

And Tod sweet Parker drive Gif did you do it or where did you get it? that should be out there.

[Jose_TheGenius]

Originally Posted by Uwe Blab

I think this has turned into a "Defending Tiago Because Someone Said He Sucks" thread. I think Tiago is playing great. I think Jefferson is much better than Tiago. I recall seeing Jefferson do well in pick and rolls, he has a good midrange jumper, and he is good in the post. Defensively, he rebounds more and has more blocked shots, which automatically makes him a better defender.

So in summation, Tiago doesn't suck, Jefferson is better, if Utah wants to do the trade for some strange reason, you do it. But I don't think they will, so this is all probably moot.

+1

Originally Posted by TodTango

Jefferson doesn't do well in Pick and Roll. His strength is in his back to the basket game. How is it that you can just give it an "eye test" but not have it backed up with any sort of statistical significance? I recall that Jeffeson is slow and not as strong defensively.


Again, how does one quantify who is better?
NBA.com Advanced Stats: Player vs. Player - Advanced basketball statistics for NBA players and teams on NBA.com

When you look at the stats-Splitter shoots better, his plus minus scores are better, he gets to the FT Line more which means he gets a chance to score PLUS puts fouls on opposing players.

no one is saying Jefferson is better than Tiago in the pick and roll.

the problem you have with that is you're implying Tiago is the only one who can do that, when in reality Duncan can play Tiago in the pick and roll scenario. Jefferson would add another dimension to the offense with his back to the basket and can also jump shoot.

it's simple: we can run as a team with a player like Jefferson and set up the offense while with Tiago, we have to run because he can't do anything else and TD can't back down guys anymore

[Jose_TheGenius]

Originally Posted by Kager

Tod's right Al may benifit another team who does more iso ball and he may currently be better in the post, but Splitter does what is required in our system and has (on this forum at least) an underated post game.... for about half the price.

Splitter is playing within the system, as Jefferson can.

simple: if we have a player like Jefferson (keyword: like), you then switch Duncan for Tiago, who can do the same things, and a player like AJ who can spot up shoot in Duncan's place.

Jefferson is earning a lot right now but nothing close next year because of the new CBA. Splitter's stock is going to skyrocket this season and they'll be earning close to the same. Splitter will get offers in the $8-10 million range, Jefferson will get around $10 million ($18 mill is going to be the ceiling on that with Bron earning that much) and he'll get no where near $14 million.

the conversation is getting a better player than Splitter to win right now than trying to keep Tiago for the future since we're probably going to be a lottery team or 6-7th in the playoffs at best once TD leaves

[katyspursfan]

Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius

Jefferson is earning a lot right now but nothing close next year because of the new CBA. Splitter's stock is going to skyrocket this season and they'll be earning close to the same. Splitter will get offers in the $8-10 million range, Jefferson will get around $10 million ($18 mill is going to be the ceiling on that with Bron earning that much) and he'll get no where near $14 million.

Why do you think that two players that you rate at different levels will receive similar contracts?

In one sentence, you claim that Jefferson will be taking a pay cut, because of the new CBA.
In the next, you claim that teams will overpay for Splitter, yet under the same CBA.

Are teams going to become frugal on good players, and yet continue to overspend on marginal players? The same CBA applies to both. If you think that they both make comparable money next year, then teams think that they have comparable value.

I'm confused at your logic. Honestly. No sarcasm.

Then again, I'm not a self-proclaimed genius /s

[b1gdon]

Originally Posted by katyspursfan

Why do you think that two players that you rate at different levels will receive similar contracts?

In one sentence, you claim that Jefferson will be taking a pay cut, because of the new CBA.
In the next, you claim that teams will overpay for Splitter, yet under the same CBA.

Are teams going to become frugal on good players, and yet continue to overspend on marginal players? The same CBA applies to both. If you think that they both make comparable money next year, then teams think that they have comparable value.

I'm confused at your logic. Honestly. No sarcasm.

Then again, I'm not a self-proclaimed genius /s

Jefferson will get paid. I predict something close to the $15M he's making now, if not more. Teams always overpay for quality big men. It's the same reason why Splitter will be getting $8-10M. As far as the Spurs are concerned, I think he's worth up to $15M with Spurs over cap and resigning their own guys to bring them up to the tax level.

[TodTango]

the conversation is getting a better player than Splitter to win right now than trying to keep Tiago for the future since we're probably going to be a lottery team or 6-7th in the playoffs at best once TD leaves

I think this is where we differ. I am of the opinion that seasons change and the status quo goes with it. To counter the change, what's required is a system that makes everything as close to as automatic as possible. It's the baseline reason that every player's role is defined. Pop and RC try their level best to ensure that the players they bring in, fit the roles they've created and need for this team. It will not always be the optimal fit, but if you think about it, they have gone with a total is better than the sum of it's parts mentality.
The LAL is a train wreck, the Mavs are the same, OKC is a still a beast but are they really better without James Harden? Does Harden and Lin have enough help in Houston? I say the Spurs trusting the system gives them a strong chance at staying at the upper levels in the West.

I will say that Jefferson has a superior post up game. But, I remind everyone that the whole team has invested over half a season playing the way they play, complete with all the nuances Pop has revealed. Bringing in a player whose main strength is the low block out to FT line extended does sound a little like TD. However, unlike TD, Jefferson does not have the added benefit of being in the system with year's and year's of "corporate knowledge". Out of all the coaches that Jefferson has played with, the only one who has ties to the Spurs tree is Doc Rivers, who he played for in 3 seasons. Then he went to Minnesota where he played for Kevin McHale, and they played primarily an inside out offense. Now he plays for Tyrone Corbin and again, an inside-out offense.
Maybe Al remembers some of the sets from his time with Doc. Let's say that he does. But I want to point out one thing:

He is a system coach and the Spur’s Continuity offense is a thing of beauty. The system has the players in constant motion and doesn’t rely on individual shot selection. It’s ball movement and spacing. He tailors many of his actions to maximize his star players like Tony Parker. Defensively, it’s pretty simple. No middle, fill and sink on the backside, and get into bodies (not just space).

Pop is who he is and that 4 Down is a system that Pop no longer relies on. The makeup of the team is such that they are a team that has to play a movement systems, they have to trust the offense, and even better than last year, they are better at defense.

Pop & RC may agree with you people that want Jefferson. They could very well do what you guys say, but looking at the history of how the Spurs have been run during the Pop era, they haven't done anything like that at all, even when they've brought in players during the mid-point. When they traded away Malik to get Nazr, it didn't require them to dump a starter. Nesterovic was the starter at the time and then got injured prior to playoffs that 05 title season. Drew Gooden and Glenn Robinson had specific roles as corallary players. Maybe Al takes one of those roles, but since Tiago has already fulfilled the expectations of that role...why trade that away plus the continuity?
IT'S THE SYSTEM and the word rules it all. Can Al Jeff get the system?

If Pop and RC think he can. They'll find a way. I hope Splitter stays and the Spurs don't lose too much continuity because of the outgoing players.

[td4mvp2k]

Originally Posted by katyspursfan

Are teams going to become frugal on good players, and yet continue to overspend on marginal players?

[b1gdon]

Here is an interesting and detailed take on Jefferson's potential in Silver and Black. I would post the whole thing, but the take is so good, so I'll give some highlights and encourage you to follow the link. It's a good read. How would Al Jefferson fit with the Spurs?

What is odd is to hear the Spurs connected to Jefferson. San Antonio has long been looking to pair Tim Duncan with a star center, but Jefferson doesn't really fit the bill. Not necessarily because he isn't a good player - I think Big Al is universally seen as one of the 10 best centers in the league - but because he seems to embody the antithesis of everything the Spurs have become in the Tony Parker-era (read: since the Spurs starting play fast).

Jefferson is the textbook example of a plodding post player. He moves at the pace of a tortoise, uses up a ton of the shot clock just to get in a position to comfortably put up a shot and probably wouldn't make it to centercourt on a number of San Antonio's offensive possessions. Jefferson is used to playing for a Jazz team with close to zero perimeter scoring, which means they must rely on slowing the game down and playing through the post in order to score. That is the polar opposite of the Spurs do. San Antonio wants to get up and down the court as fast as possible, with a fluent and consistent tempo being the most important characteristic of their team.

For the Spurs to get their money's worth with Jefferson, they'd have to slow their offense down and incorporate his post-up game into their offense in heavy doses. According to Synergy Sports Technology, 49.1% of Jefferson's offense this season has been from post-ups, with no other play type getting more than two possessions per game. He gets about nine post-ups per game and that is not counting plays in which he receives the ball on the block and ends up passing out. That alone would significantly impact San Antonio's pace and would slow them down considerably.

Is it worth it? Maybe. Jefferson is a very reliable post scorer that gets points on about 44% of his post-ups and can be counted on in crunchtime. Jefferson plays almost exclusively on the left block where he loves to put the ball on the ground and then turnover his left shoulder for an effective push shot. Jefferson also likes to face-up towards the basket to unleash his fierce pumpfake to gain an edge on his man. Over the years he has been about to outgrow the "blackhole" tag that was (deservedly) bestowed on him earlier in his career and he has actually become a solid passer that tends to make good reads from the low and high posts. Jefferson has also stabilized his mid-range jumper over the past few seasons and is hitting an above average 41% of his shots from 16-23 feet on the year, all while attempting a career high 5.6 mid-range shots per game. He is also one of the better rebounding big men in the league, pulling down a solid 11.5 rebounds per 40 minutes.

And we haven't even covered defense. According to BasketballValue.com, the Jazz give up 110.53 points per 100 possessions while Jefferson is on the floor. When he is off the floor, their defensive efficiency drops to 101.21 points per 100 possessions allowed. That means Utah's defense gets nearly 10 points per 100 possessions better when Jefferson is off of the floor. With his net negative value of 9.32 points per 100 possessions on defense, Jefferson ranks as the third worst defensive player in the league by this metric. Jefferson is so bad on defense that, on a per 100 possessions basis, he is actually a net negative for the Jazz that gives up more than he adds back.

Jefferson plays defense in quicksand and teams routinely gameplan to exploit his pick-and-roll defense. Occasionally the Jazz will have Jefferson hedge hard on pick-and-rolls, but doing so provides the opposing ball handler an easy route to the rim, which is why Utah often settles in with the same default pick-and-roll coverage that the Spurs have. While Duncan and Splitter and even Blair can move their feet well enough to contest shooters or to deter ball handlers, Jefferson simply doesn't have the footspeed to do anything but stand there. As a result, ball handlers are shooting 48% against Jefferson in the pick-and-roll. Per Synergy, of the 26 players that have defended pick-and-roll ball handlers on at least 200 possessions this season, Jefferson has given up the second most points per possession. As of right now teams are scoring a point per possession any time they put Jefferson into a pick-and-roll. In case you were curious, the player that allows the fewest points per possession in such situations is Tiago Splitter.

While this post will come off as anti-Jefferson, I am actually a fan of his game. But for a Spurs team that has thrown their slow, post centric offense by the wayside in favor of letting their perimeter players run wild, and for a team that is already a real title contender? I am not seeing Jefferson as a fit.

[TodTango]

All that up there is inline with my argument. I see what they see and remain unfazed by Al Jefferson's stats. It's my opinion that him coming here would wreck the continuity of what Pop has built with this team. Why wreck that for Al Jefferson?
Any of the AL Jeff people feel free to continue the discussion. Lay down a convincing counter points if possible.

[TodTango]

Again, this team is all about MOTION.
Masters of Misdirection: How the Spurs hum along without their stars - SBNation.com

[old timer]

Tod, second that. Jefferson mid season makes no sense from a defensive standpoint. Hence I say it will not happen. If that is not enough, the number of moving parts required to make it work would kill any championship chances for this year. Just my reasoning.

[TodTango]

I guess there are no Al Jefferson discussions anymore?

I was waiting for further compelling arguments but it's been a few days now and no responses.

Thanks for the discussion-

[td4mvp2k]

Originally Posted by TodTango

It's my opinion that him coming here would wreck the continuity of what Pop has built with this team. Why wreck that for Al Jefferson?
Any of the AL Jeff people feel free to continue the discussion. Lay down a convincing counter points if possible.

With you and the TS for Al discussion is BS!

[JuanCaca]

for my personal standpoint i said what i think... not like gonna waste time arguing trying to bring people to my opinion... thats not the reason why im here ;-)...

(opinion is like butts hehehehehe... everyone has one :-P )