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  #1  
Old 01-02-12, 10:56 PM
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Just how good is Kawhi Leonard defensively?

For the answer take a good look at Michael Beasley's stats tonight. That was the over hyped rookie's defensive assignment tonight. Those f you hoping the kid was the next coming of Bruce Bowen better hope that he doesn't have to play in Europe like Bruce did before getting better prepared.

I'm still holiding out hope, of course, but Leonard looks far better playing d against the other team's shooting guards than any of their legit bigs.

Spurs need help.

Leonard needs time.
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  #2  
Old 01-02-12, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
For the answer take a good look at Michael Beasley's stats tonight. That was the over hyped rookie's defensive assignment tonight. Those f you hoping the kid was the next coming of Bruce Bowen better hope that he doesn't have to play in Europe like Bruce did before getting better prepared.

I'm still holiding out hope, of course, but Leonard looks far better playing d against the other team's shooting guards than any of their legit bigs.

Spurs need help.

Leonard needs time.
I would be more worried by seeing Anderson's stats tonight since he has to replace Manu
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  #3  
Old 01-03-12, 12:25 AM
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I like Kawhi but the truth is that player he "shut down" had a shooting hand injury on sunday. So let's add that in there too.........lol
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  #4  
Old 01-03-12, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
For the answer take a good look at Michael Beasley's stats tonight. That was the over hyped rookie's defensive assignment tonight. Those f you hoping the kid was the next coming of Bruce Bowen better hope that he doesn't have to play in Europe like Bruce did before getting better prepared.

I'm still holiding out hope, of course, but Leonard looks far better playing d against the other team's shooting guards than any of their legit bigs.



Spurs need help.

Leonard needs time.
Are you seiously dogging on a guy that has only played 5 NBA games? I have yet to see a rookie come in and shut down starters consistently right out of the gate. Beasley had to play 43 minutes to get 19 pts. KL only played 17 mins. I am not saying KL is a Godsend but give the kid some time before writing him off.
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  #5  
Old 01-03-12, 08:25 AM
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^1! No training camp, shortened season.... Maybe Bruce Bowen will work with him and the Spurs. Give him time to get his nba bearings, he has a lot to soak up in a little window. He's a hard worker as we all know, he was shooting in a gym with no lights during the lockout, but at least he's playing unlike most rookies in Pops system.
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  #6  
Old 01-03-12, 08:25 AM
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The lack of patience in this board is depressing.
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  #7  
Old 01-03-12, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibanezsr View Post
Are you seiously dogging on a guy that has only played 5 NBA games? I have yet to see a rookie come in and shut down starters consistently right out of the gate. Beasley had to play 43 minutes to get 19 pts. KL only played 17 mins. I am not saying KL is a Godsend but give the kid some time before writing him off.
Agreed

Guapo, did you even watch the game? Minny was shooting lights out, it didn't matter what the Spurs did last night. We didn't stand a chance, they shot almost 60% for the night and couldn't be stopped regardless of who was guarding them. We just played a team who couldn't miss anything.....it was just one of those nights....nothing to do with Leonard
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  #8  
Old 01-03-12, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
For the answer take a good look at Michael Beasley's stats tonight. That was the over hyped rookie's defensive assignment tonight. Those f you hoping the kid was the next coming of Bruce Bowen better hope that he doesn't have to play in Europe like Bruce did before getting better prepared.

I'm still holiding out hope, of course, but Leonard looks far better playing d against the other team's shooting guards than any of their legit bigs.

Spurs need help.

Leonard needs time.
You are of course correct. I think that the Spurs should waive Leonard 5 games into the season. I know they had high hopes for the rookie, but he did not pan out. Oh well.....


Did you really think that without training camp, with a shortened season and in his rookie season that he was going to be a lockdown defender???? Really????? I mean I know fans by nature are impatient, but to call him overhyped is not an accurate assessment. From what I have heard, the thing that was said over and over is that this kid is talented and has a tremendous upside on the defensive side of the ball. It will take some time for him to learn the Spurs system. He may not even get it this year (depending on his PT), but by next year I expect he will be alot better than this year. If he is not, then and only then will I label him a bust.....but certainly not 5 games into his rookie season.
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"He said, 'Go for every pump fake,' " Hibbert said.
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  #9  
Old 01-03-12, 09:26 AM
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I find your lack of faith disturbing.

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  #10  
Old 01-03-12, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibanezsr View Post
Are you seiously dogging on a guy that has only played 5 NBA games? I have yet to see a rookie come in and shut down starters consistently right out of the gate. Beasley had to play 43 minutes to get 19 pts. KL only played 17 mins. I am not saying KL is a Godsend but give the kid some time before writing him off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by disciple View Post
The lack of patience in this board is depressing.
both of these, +1

i shutter to think what people thought after Ostertag schooled Duncan in the preseason: "this is our #1 overall pick?", "get ready for the lottery after Robinson retires", "Duncan is giving me diarrhea"

in all seriousness, it's way too early to tell how someone is going to play like. don't even factor in training camp and preseason, this is the first time Leonard has guarded Beasley. i'd be worried after the 2nd time because he doesn't know his game. remember Beasley is a SF/PF tweener and Leonard is not (as much as people on here want to make him our PF of the future for some reason).
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  #11  
Old 01-03-12, 12:28 PM
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Of course i watched the game. Did you all read my entire post? If so, then maybe a trip back to reading class is required.

All im saying is this kid is over hyped. Spurs couldnt go out and get any other front line help and they havent stopped telling us how good this kid is.

Begs the question, why werent they this excited about Scola or others who "didn't fit thier plans?"

Wake up people. Ticket sales must continue even as team gets old and reality sets in.
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  #12  
Old 01-03-12, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
Begs the question, why werent they this excited about Scola or others who "didn't fit thier plans?"
the kid is overhyped in these forums, just like us needing a dominant big to win a title is overhyped here. you can't go by what everyone's opinions are here.

if so, we got rid of our savior James White a few years ago

but this kid is better and is giving us what we need over George Hill. Hill did have the luxury of a healthy squad early though. Leonard is burdened with a less effective Duncan and defensive expectations that will never be met unless he holds Lebron to 0-20 FG with 1 point. just wait for people to get on the kid if we ever (heaven forbid) put him at PF
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  #13  
Old 01-03-12, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
Of course i watched the game. Did you all read my entire post? If so, then maybe a trip back to reading class is required.

All im saying is this kid is over hyped. Spurs couldnt go out and get any other front line help and they havent stopped telling us how good this kid is.

Begs the question, why werent they this excited about Scola or others who "didn't fit thier plans?"

Wake up people. Ticket sales must continue even as team gets old and reality sets in.

I am awake and don't need any more reading classes than the 4 I go to already to understand that you are doubting the kid after 5 games and comparing a starter in Beasley to a reserve in KL. And Jose is correct in stating that KL is not over-hyped anywhere else besides these boards and local SA news outlets. It is imperative to have a defender of KL's ability to stop the Lebrons, Melos and Durants of the NBA over the next 5 to 10 years... Especially with all the new defensive rules over the past few years that have given the advantage to the offensive players. I agree SA needs bigs too but this past draft lacked in that departments and any free agent big man was way overpriced. And you can have all the big men in the world but in this league if you can't guard the perimeter it won't matter. I think SA has done pretty much everything they could this offseason and I have no issues with their moves.
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  #14  
Old 01-03-12, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose_TheGenius View Post
the kid is overhyped in these forums, just like us needing a dominant big to win a title is overhyped here. you can't go by what everyone's opinions are here.

if so, we got rid of our savior James White a few years ago

but this kid is better and is giving us what we need over George Hill. Hill did have the luxury of a healthy squad early though. Leonard is burdened with a less effective Duncan and defensive expectations that will never be met unless he holds Lebron to 0-20 FG with 1 point. just wait for people to get on the kid if we ever (heaven forbid) put him at PF
Are you saying Lord Scola is overhyped?? :shocked

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  #15  
Old 01-03-12, 09:16 PM
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If I remember correctly Leonard was the 15th pick of the draft which made him 1 spot removed from being a lottery pick. I doubt if the Spurs were going to give up GH - who Pop loved - for someone they don't think has a really nice upside and future.

I say we wait until he's played at least 10 games before we decide if he's a 'bust' or not...
I know that's tough for some, after all we got to listen to several folks complain all last year that Tiago was a bust and would never ever be any good and why oh why did the Spurs waste a draft pick on him.....
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  #16  
Old 01-03-12, 09:31 PM
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Unfortunately, the hype is not limited to these boards and to the local news casts.

The Spurs themselves have been raining praises on this kid during their press conferences and on their own television broadcasts- which are produced by their employees but aired on Fox Sports, etc.

For what it is worth, they ARE and have been selling us on this kid and on just how good one of their other "bigs" is ("Tiago this, Tiago that").

I was taught that when someone tells you something over and over they're more likely trying to convince themselves of that as "the truth."

It's a sales ploy that actually works- until we see them play against other quality (and sometimes just as young) bigs from other teams.

I see confidence and growth in KL- but he is not the answer. Let KL guard the other athletic players that are his size or smaller.

We need a REAL big or two to help on the front line. Even Popovich said as much after the embarrassing round 1 exit last summer. They weren't able to get it done.

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  #17  
Old 01-03-12, 10:08 PM
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You got that all out of one game from a rookie...great job maybe we should cut him now
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  #18  
Old 01-04-12, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSpur View Post
Unfortunately, the hype is not limited to these boards and to the local news casts.

The Spurs themselves have been raining praises on this kid during their press conferences and on their own television broadcasts- which are produced by their employees but aired on Fox Sports, etc.

For what it is worth, they ARE and have been selling us on this kid and on just how good one of their other "bigs" is ("Tiago this, Tiago that").

I was taught that when someone tells you something over and over they're more likely trying to convince themselves of that as "the truth."

It's a sales ploy that actually works- until we see them play against other quality (and sometimes just as young) bigs from other teams.

I see confidence and growth in KL- but he is not the answer. Let KL guard the other athletic players that are his size or smaller.

We need a REAL big or two to help on the front line. Even Popovich said as much after the embarrassing round 1 exit last summer. They weren't able to get it done.

The Spurs have to praise this kid because G Hill was a fan favorite. SA is using local new outlets to hype him. I have yet to see anything on national sports channels/articles hyping up KL.

And nobody is arguing that we don't need a big man. It is obvious SA is weak with bigs. And no big available is going to give you better #s than what Tiago can produce right now.
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  #19  
Old 01-04-12, 12:21 PM
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Another hype sample-- from today's Express-News talking about how other Spurs will make up for Manu's injury absence:

Quote:
Spurs Nation

"Tony Parker is capable of playing as he did in 2009, when Ginobili missed the end of the season, and there’s potential with Gary Neal, James Anderson and Kawhi Leonard."
Seriously? Which Kawhi Leonard have they been watching?
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  #20  
Old 01-04-12, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
Another hype sample-- from today's Express-News talking about how other Spurs will make up for Manu's injury absence:

[url="http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/01/04/buck-harvey-ginobili-nails-it-%E2%80%94-playoff-timing/"]

Seriously? Which Kawhi Leonard have they been watching?
I think you need to look up your definitions young man. Just because they say someone has potential, does not mean they are "Hyping" him. After 5 games you are willing to label him a bust? You crack me up. You are a prime example of an impatient fan.
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Hibbert, who worked out with Duncan in San Antonio during the lockout, said he has grown close to the perennial All-Star. On Friday, he texted Duncan and asked how he should guard him.

"He said, 'Go for every pump fake,' " Hibbert said.
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  #21  
Old 01-04-12, 02:08 PM
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This was on Jan 3 - "Through the first four games of the season, Leonard leads the team in rebounds per minute and ranks third on the team with an average of 6.0 boards per game." Foxsports

Now he's fallen off a little are the last game after 5 games - Minutes per game 18.2 5.4 Rebounds per game -- Tim has averaged 23.5 minutes per game and 5.2 rebounds per game - and they both trail Tiago (who was labeled a bust last year by some of these same negative, over-reacting folks)

And Leonard's number 8 overall in the Western Conference in steals..

And he's the top rookie in both of those categories, so I guess he's not doing too bad for a bust....
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  #22  
Old 01-04-12, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelWi101 View Post
This was on Jan 3 - "Through the first four games of the season, Leonard leads the team in rebounds per minute and ranks third on the team with an average of 6.0 boards per game." Foxsports

Now he's fallen off a little are the last game after 5 games - Minutes per game 18.2 5.4 Rebounds per game -- Tim has averaged 23.5 minutes per game and 5.2 rebounds per game - and they both trail Tiago (who was labeled a bust last year by some of these same negative, over-reacting folks)

And Leonard's number 8 overall in the Western Conference in steals..

And he's the top rookie in both of those categories, so I guess he's not doing too bad for a bust....
Guapo wont let a little thing like "facts" mess up his argument.
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Hibbert, who worked out with Duncan in San Antonio during the lockout, said he has grown close to the perennial All-Star. On Friday, he texted Duncan and asked how he should guard him.

"He said, 'Go for every pump fake,' " Hibbert said.
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  #23  
Old 01-04-12, 02:57 PM
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The report I read said something more to the effect the rest of the team will have to collectively make up for Manu and also quoted James Anderson, "no one can replace Manu." He followed with a statement to the nature of they each as a team would have to collectively make up for Manu's production. Not arguing with you, or defending the the Express News, just stating things as I read them.
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  #24  
Old 01-04-12, 03:37 PM
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Ok. So he's the prettiest pig in the ugly pig contest?

Either way, he's far from being the front court savior the Spurs have been trying to sell him as.

Like i said in my original post, I haven't given up on the kid.

I just feel the team might be better served by him trying to guard offensive players of his own size and weight than big men who outweigh, outheight, outmuscle and outrebound him like Beasley did.. Rather easily at that.

As for Splitter, he's still nowhere near as good or promising as the Spurs made him sound when they chose to bring him in over Scola either, but thats another story.

The ticket sales must continue and like Barnum said, "There is a fool born every minute."
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  #25  
Old 01-04-12, 04:29 PM
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He's going to have easy success early on against smaller players. But where we do need him is against big mobile forwards like Beasley. Let him take his lumps now because we will need him ready for that come playoffs-- Dirk, Odom, Marion all on one team, not to mention Rudy Gay, Grant Hill, Kobe, Lebron, etc.
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  #26  
Old 01-04-12, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzly_bexar View Post
He's going to have easy success early on against smaller players. But where we do need him is against big mobile forwards like Beasley. Let him take his lumps now because we will need him ready for that come playoffs-- Dirk, Odom, Marion all on one team, not to mention Rudy Gay, Grant Hill, Kobe, Lebron, etc.
+1

people want him to be the next Bruce Bowen, but even Bruce had to play overseas and bounced around teams before getting to the Spurs where his skills flourished and got them polished. even Bowen wasn't the Stopper overnight
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Old 01-04-12, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
The ticket sales must continue and like Barnum said, "There is a fool born every minute."
Actually the quote is 'there's a sucker born every minute' and actually Barnum didn't say it, it was a man named David Hannum

And I know that you're not really calling the folks who are supporting Splitter and Leonard and who spend their money supporting the Spurs 'fools' are you?
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  #28  
Old 01-04-12, 05:58 PM
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^^ And seriously, it's us as the expectant fans, not the Spurs public relations machine that was getting all excited about Leonard's potential to impact this season.
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  #29  
Old 01-05-12, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzly_bexar View Post
^^ And seriously, it's us as the expectant fans, not the Spurs public relations machine that was getting all excited about Leonard's potential to impact this season.

Again, it was much more than just fans getting excited about him. Even tonight during the Spurs produced telecast, the pre game featured a tape about how Kwahi and others were going to "man up" in order to fill in for Manu. Only one who did was Danny Greene.

Suckaz!
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  #30  
Old 01-05-12, 02:21 AM
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  #31  
Old 01-05-12, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzly_bexar View Post
^^ And seriously, it's us as the expectant fans, not the Spurs public relations machine that was getting all excited about Leonard's potential to impact this season.
Apparently, Guap can't tell the difference between the two, otherwise he might not've made his original comment. Some people just don't get it, even if you draw them pictures and use small words.
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Hibbert, who worked out with Duncan in San Antonio during the lockout, said he has grown close to the perennial All-Star. On Friday, he texted Duncan and asked how he should guard him.

"He said, 'Go for every pump fake,' " Hibbert said.
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  #32  
Old 01-05-12, 08:49 AM
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Oh, so the public relations machine HASN'T been telling us how great KL was going to be? Seriously?!
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  #33  
Old 01-05-12, 09:50 AM
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The Spurs media machine hypes EVERYBODY at some point. After Kawhi's high draft pick status and his flashes of brilliant defense early on in this season, I'd be hyping him too.

Now, watch-- it'll be The Danny Green Show.

That's just what they do. It's not some conspiracy to paper over the Spurs' supposed mediocrity to continue to sell tickets.

Hype is just who they are. And they will hype whoever the flavor of the moment is.

But I think a lot of us thought (and I still think) that Kawhi can be a difference maker for us this season.

I have said from the beginning that I was in favor of moving to a more defensive-minded rotation. I want to see not just Green and Leonard play, but play together.
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  #34  
Old 01-05-12, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
Another hype sample-- from today's Express-News talking about how other Spurs will make up for Manu's injury absence:

[url="http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/01/04/buck-harvey-ginobili-nails-it-%E2%80%94-playoff-timing/"]

Seriously? Which Kawhi Leonard have they been watching?
potential = continuing to develop and playing far beyond what he's shown us. you have to just give the kid time. there's a reason why he's a rookie against veterans on that court right now (especially on a team that has expectations to win a title and already has its veteran core with a "complex" system).
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  #35  
Old 01-05-12, 03:33 PM
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I am willing to do that. Just calling a spade a spade.
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  #36  
Old 01-06-12, 10:42 AM
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By the way... Another great, statistically significant performance by KL last night.

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  #37  
Old 01-06-12, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
By the way... Another great, statistically significant performance by KL last night.

I am sure KL can sleep peacefully at night knowing that he has your support.
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  #38  
Old 01-06-12, 11:03 AM
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I think Leonard is fantastic so far considering his age and lack of a training camp.

Keep in mind the best comparison for Leonard is Gerald Wallace. And Wallace was an athletic freak who rarely played for Sacramento in his first few years, then got dumped to Charlotte in the expansion draft.

So no, Leonard's not going to average 10-15 ppg this year. But that's pretty tough to do on a team this deep. What he will do is supply great defense and rebounding.

I really like the lineups with him and Bonner in there because Leonard can guard the 3 and Bonner can guard the 4, and Leonard can then go inside to rebound to offset Bonner's weakness there while Bonner spaces the floor to make up for Leonard's inconsistent shot.

Bonner is a bad rebounder for a 4 but combining them together makes for a solid rebounding combo.
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  #39  
Old 01-06-12, 11:17 AM
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Just checked the stats.

Kawhi Leonard is the highest non-PF/C in the league in rebound rate.

He is #43 in the league overall in rebound rate. Blair is #35. TD isn't on the top 50 list.
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  #40  
Old 01-06-12, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by grizzly_bexar View Post
Just checked the stats.

Kawhi Leonard is the highest non-PF/C in the league in rebound rate.

He is #43 in the league overall in rebound rate. Blair is #35. TD isn't on the top 50 list.
Impressive. Hope he keeps it up
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  #41  
Old 01-06-12, 12:41 PM
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Unless Bruce Bowen was having one of those nights where his 3's were dropping, his performance and value seldom showed up in his stats rather his performance showed up in the diminished stats of the people he guarded. Maybe that's what to look at when assessing Leonard's developement.
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  #42  
Old 01-06-12, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Guapo View Post
By the way... Another great, statistically significant performance by KL last night.

did you see how he played Odom? because Odom > Beasley
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  #43  
Old 01-07-12, 12:01 PM
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No, but I saw how Odom played and Odom played like Mahimni >Odom. :shocked
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  #44  
Old 01-07-12, 12:37 PM
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I think Leonard could do well by playing like Green. And he's done well using him arms to deflect passes, and he rebounds well. He may not right now be a great man to man, and he's offense will be mostly put backs and transition. But for a Bench player all he has to do is be active, keep his arms up, and run up and down the floor...Ford and Parker will find him enough.
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  #45  
Old 01-07-12, 08:09 PM
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Bowen had amazingly quick feet... Something that ive only seen in raja bell. KL is not going to be a great defender on that basis. I see him being able to defend the post on guys like carmelo and on the the wings slower shoters like dirk. I think he will shine mostly on help defense and weakside defense. Once he learns the system i think we will begin to pay big dividends on his ability
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  #46  
Old 01-08-12, 12:17 PM
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What the hell. Let's just give it to Guapo. I am now officially rooting for Kawhi "the Bust" Leonard.

Go Bust go!!

Last edited by bills0; 01-08-12 at 12:19 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #47  
Old 01-08-12, 12:31 PM
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Bowen Deja vu

It's funny, but I had an argument on another board a few years ago almost identical to this one, except it was about Bruce Bowen himself. The arguments by the naysayers were almost identical: Bruce was over hyped by the Spurs, he did not put up great numbers in the box score, he got abused in the previous game, etc. And this was about the mature Bowen! The one that had started on championship teams!

I looks like Leonard is already stepping into Bowen's shoes.

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  #48  
Old 01-08-12, 09:13 PM
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Riddle Me This?

How does Leonard have a doubledouble on 6-10 shooting with 2 steals and 2 assists and only 1 foul and 1 turnover and still come out with a -4 performance rating against OKC?
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  #49  
Old 01-08-12, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bills0 View Post
What the hell. Let's just give it to Guapo. I am now officially rooting for Kawhi "the Bust" Leonard.

Go Bust go!!
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  #50  
Old 01-09-12, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurd_On View Post
Riddle Me This?

How does Leonard have a doubledouble on 6-10 shooting with 2 steals and 2 assists and only 1 foul and 1 turnover and still come out with a -4 performance rating against OKC?
that's a team stat

you get +1 or -1 per score while he's in the game. so basically this:

if Leonard comes off the bench and hits a 2 point shot and someone on the other team hits a 3 after him, he'd be at -1.

it's a decent team stat, but can be deceiving because even if a guy does well, that stat can make the stat professionals say he's not doing well. the stat could also be fool's gold for those who are making cases for individual players.

if i may use Bonner for the example:

Bonner is 0-2 on 3 pointers and on defense, his guy is going to dominate him but he's getting help from someone else so his guy can miss the shot (put the effort and the reason he missed on the help). we make three 3 pointers during all this, Bonner would be +9 when in reality he didn't do anything.

take that stat for what you will though. in my opinion, that stat is only valid on making an opinion if you watch the whole game and use it to help formulate an opinion.
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